Might and Magic Might & Magic X Pre-Release Thread

[duchU]

Guys, what do you think about this style of conversation in comparison to the original one? (just do not kill me)

That actually looks decent I think, 'specially compared to the original, but the very bare bones dark see-through boxes don't fit with the rest of the UI.

And I have always thought that black color matches everything...

 

[Shadenuat]

Just watch the whole starting movie somewhere on youtube or just get the demo. The giant spiders is just the top of it, all the four-winged fallen diablo 3 angels damned by four dragon gods and shieeet I just can't take it. I couldn't stand the narrator's story I just turned off sound. And there are all these Uriels and Michaels in the game in lore books.
And yes giant spiders are banal as shit and I don't care if they were in previous M&Ms or not. I am sick of this monster concept.

It is not the world and the story which made the games great.

For me world at least made M&M special, at least since HoMM II. All the references and Archibald and shit, and monsters and cool locations.
If it was at least HoMM V, maybe it would be fine, but HoMM VI is so alienating I couldn't stand it since first art concept came out

The game seems to favor melee a lot more for now, is there a button to disengage from combat or I'm missing something? I would say 3 barbarians and 1 earth mage for heal in demo would be best party.
There are no non combat skills whatsoever which also sucks man. But I like the thresholds and abilities in combat ones and stuff like warmaster

 

[Grunker]

All this story and setting wanking gets me fucking sad. Not only because the prestigious people of the Codex seem to insinuate that there was anything of worth in the lame-ass generic setting that was old M&M, but also because it implies setting and story in a game almost solely focused on other things can still break a game for Codexers.

When I came here years ago and until recently, I thought I shared a sort of gaming ideal with the bros of this place. I thought what united us - storyfags, C&C-fags, mondblut-fags, oldfags, whatever - was that we were critical that RPGs and games in general had moved their focus from integrating complex and deep game mechanics and shifted the focus to the stories these games wanted to tell. In other words, no matter who you were, no matter which crowd you belonged to, at least you agreed that the move away from gameplay-focus and onto other things was bad. C&C-fags might disagree with the stat-guys, but their concern was telling stories and roleplaying through consequences to your actions - i.e. game mechanics. Dungeon crawlers might disagree with people who just wanted Morrowind exploration back, but both wanted a certain type of gameplay back that had disappeared. The withering of mechanics concerned these people more than the rape of some lame fantasy story.

With the Fallout-thread and now your comment, it seems I was wrong at a very fundamental level. Codexian bros do not share a universal aggreeance that games are first and foremost about the way they play. In some way, that's fine, I suppose, and it's my own fault for thinking this without having it confirmed.

That doesn't make my "doubting my allegiance" comment less true however. Of course I feel less part of a whole when it turns out I don't share this core ideal with everyone. The fact of the matter is that I believed back when I joined - and still do - that games are first and foremost about their mechanics and their systems, and everything else gains value from how they tie into that. How mechanics play off of setting and vice versa, for instance. Until recently, I thought this was pretty much an accepted fact here.

http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/index.php?threads/might-magic-x.81387/page-34#post-2711859

 

[Lady_Error]

I like the visual style of the old games more than H6 or MMX, but as far as the worlds itself, they are both pretty average.

The reason for the visual style is that the suits at Ubisoft wanted a Grimrock style look and probably agreed to this project under that condition.

 

[Infinitron]

While Ashan probably isn't a very interesting setting, I don't have a problem with them trying to develop it further. A good writer could make even the Forgotten Realms interesting, as we know.

 

[ColCol]

No laser guns in might and magic? Might as well cancel the game.This has all been of nothing. What a shame.

 

[Shadenuat]

ll this story and setting wanking gets me fucking sad

There are games which, if you take story and setting from them and replace with something synthetic and boring like HoMM VI is, would be forgotten instantly. Take Morrowind with it's setting-as-a-story and slap Oblivion world on it, and even with dungeons and roleplaying system from former, check how long would it take for you to just run away from game screaming. Setting can make or break the game just like any part of RPG can, so, seriously fuck off with your preachy shit.

wanted a Grimrock style look

When Grimlock came out, it did not copy anything of the market at the time, and was quite special. It's music, sound, art and looks do not continue any existing universe. It does it's own thing, for good or ill, but it does it well.

A good writer could make even the Forgotten Realms interesting, as we know

Judging from the demo, they are not Avellones there.

 

[Grunker]

There are games which, if you take story and setting from them and replace with something synthetic and boring like HoMM VI is, would be forgotten instantly.

And those games are not fucking Might & Magic considering that story and setting meant fuck-all in the older games. You might personally have liked it a bunch, but next to no emphasis was put into exposition of the plot, characters or setting in the old games. It's just a backdrop.

Care all you want, but fuck if I'm going to accept someone suggesting that Might & Magic X will suck simply because they switched from one generic fantasy world to another.

If this game will suck it will be because of uninteresting systems, stupid design flaws (like slow movement or whatever), or half-assed, boring exploration.

EDIT: Also, no, wait:

There are games which, if you take story and setting from them and replace with something synthetic and boring like HoMM VI is, would be forgotten instantly.

this isn't fucking true. There are no games - not a single one - that will suddenly suck if its setting is downgraded, if it functioned as a great game before that. It might be less interesting, you might keep playing it for other reasons, but if the games is fucking solid then the setting will not make it be forgotten instantly. Games like PS:T or MotB have their primary strength in story and character, and their settings are only crucial because they are tied so heavily into the story and the characters and would be non-sensical without them.

Do not tell me that this is the case with Might & Magic, or you're definetely off your nutter.

 

[Shadenuat]

And those games are not fucking Might & Magic considering that story and setting meant fuck-all in the older games.

Stop fucking judging what settings people cared and which did not already. I would bet my ass some guys re watch final fight scene from Xeen and cry manly tears like I do when I re watch Planescape ending. For the time people cared, and that's what important. So you either press nostalgia buttons here or do at least a decent job in your own world and story. But devs don't seem to do good job at any.

If this game will suck it will be because of uninteresting systems, stupid design flaws (like slow movement or whatever), or half-assed, boring exploration.

These things can be changed and polished. The movement they will probably speed up, map will get more features, exploration is not that boring in the demo and it would be nice if they are going to balance loot and items. But it still would mean you're exploring Ashan, a dead world inside, for me.

 

[Eyeball]

Shrugs. Enroth in the original games was a generic fantasy world, nothing special about it.

Them blasters and oracles and aliens. So generic lul!

Don't bring up the sci-fi stuff, because that is the most retarded thing in the MM universe. And you know that I was talking about the fantasy part of the game.

Couldn't agree more. WIz has silly sci-fi stuff too, but it is a lot better Integrated into the gameworld than MM's is. Wiz has it as a consistent theme, spaceships and alien races and robots and whatnot, MM just goes "Congratulations on killing that evil wizard. Now: LAZORS!"

 

[Grunker]

See my edit @Shadenuat.

Stop fucking judging what settings people cared and which did not already. I would bet my ass some guys re watch final fight scene from Xeen and cry manly tears like I do when I re watch Planescape ending.

If you're arguing that World of Xeen had as much emphasis on story as PS:T, you're just a retard. Straight up. You're objectively fucking wrong.

I'm not interested in discussing what meant something to random nerds or to myself, those things are so subjective they're completely meaningless to debate.

I'm interested in discussing what these games focused on.

Might & Magic has traditionally placed very little emphasis on its story and A LOT of emphasis on its gameplay. Thus, watering down its setting a bit (considering it was bland to begin with) means fuck all when you look at the game objectively.

But it still would mean you're exploring Ashan, a dead world inside, for me.

Why the fuck would it be interesting to discuss what Ashan is for you or me? Some random forum user's opinion of why the game sucks hardly matters when we're discussing the prospect of a quality game. Ashan is completely comparable to the older M&M worlds, except for its lack of lasers and robots. Otherwise they're of the exact same breed of trivial high fantasy bullshit.

 

[sser]

While I think M&M's sci-fi angle is pretty shit, the games don't particularly take themselves seriously enough for me to care.

 

[Infinitron]

How was Heroes 6's story?

 

[Grunker]

How was Heroes 6's story?

As banal and completely uninteresting as every single game before it. There is trouble related to the human crown, humans have violent encounters with other races, world-threatening cataclysmic event happens, you play as various races most trying to thwart that in their own way.

 

[Infinitron]

I think I will do a full Ashan playthrough starting from Heroes 5 to see how it really is.

 

[Darth Roxor]

As banal and completely uninteresting as every single game before it.

.... OK YOU MOTHERFUCKER NOW YOU ARE STRETCHING IT

Saying that stories in the Might and Magic RPGs are irrelevant and shit is one thing (because they are), but Heroes 3 and 4 had good stories in many campaigns, and 4 had excellent fucking writing

 

[IDtenT]

Heroes 5 is good for what it is.

 

[IDtenT]

As banal and completely uninteresting as every single game before it.

.... OK YOU MOTHERFUCKER NOW YOU ARE STRETCHING IT

Saying that stories in the Might and Magic RPGs are irrelevant and shit is one thing (because they are), but Heroes 3 and 4 had good stories in many campaigns, and 4 had excellent fucking writing

 

[Shadenuat]

If you're arguing that World of Xeen had as much emphasis on story as PS:T, you're just a retard. Straight up. You're objectively fucking wrong

If it worked for people back then, so it means back then it did something right. It may not be enough today, but today is different time.
And I agree with Roxor, Heroes 3 was fun and still fun, and Heroes 4 indeed had some cool writing.

Why the fuck would it be interesting to discuss what Ashan is for you or me?

I am not a mechanical doll which enjoys only the process of killing shit and grabbing loot. The reason why I am actually doing that intrigues me and moves me, even if it's a game like goddamn Diablo 1. Grimrock intrigued me on many levels, from actually reaching the end of the dungeon to see what's happening, to puzzles, secrets and loot.
Seriously, if they will do the system right in M&MX, it might be an averagely interesting game, but you will fall asleep every time you will do anything but pressing attack button, and judging by the demo, they are trying to make you fall asleep quite often.

I think I will do a full Ashan playthrough starting from Heroes 5 to see how it really is.

Heroes V tried to pay at least a little tribute to the series. Banal and juvenile, but some characters were entertaining, and stuff happened. Don't mix it with VI, because at VI something derp happened. It's like... a prequel to the setting which noone cared about to begin with. Eh.

 

[Grunker]

I think I will do a full Ashan playthrough starting from Heroes 5 to see how it really is.

You could also just read the book. They gave one to me at Gamescom. Sort of like a Campaign Setting of Ashan like a P&P game would have. It is banalshitboring, however.

If it worked for people back then, so it means back then it did something right. It may not be enough today, but today is different time.

Your argument is that the originals had great stories because they were written in the 90s but Ashan sucks because its written in 2013?

Out of all the places, I never thought I'd meet the argument that time matters on the Codex. If anything, I thought no one on this place would dare restate the obvious falsehood that something can be objectively shit if it was made in the 90s but great in 2010+. And you just made the reverse of that argument, but the core is the same.

A shitty setting is a shitty setting. I don't care when it was written.

I am not a mechanical doll which enjoys only the process of killing shit and grabbing loot.

Nice fucking strawman there, I'll give you that. M&M aren't just about killing shit and grabbing loot, and I never said they were.

You are not fucking making your case. You're just saying: "I arbitrarily loved the settings of the old Might & Magic and I arbitrarily hate Ashan." Well, OK. What an impressive foundation for a glorious debate.

Heroes V tried to pay at least a little tribute to the series. Banal and juvenile, but some characters were entertaining, and stuff happened. Don't mix it with VI, because at VI something derp happened. It's like... a prequel to the setting which noone cared about to begin with. Eh.

Heroes V's story and characters are most easily compared TV-shows like The Bold and the Beautiful except it's in a fantasy world and people kill each other.

It is evident we will not agree, this debate is pointless, and like I said, I have no inclination to keep debating why you do or do not like something. I have stated what I consider to be undeniable facts: 1) Might & Magic has very little focus on story and setting compared to other RPGs. 2) What you or me have love for does not matter - the debat of quality does. 3) Ashan and old Might & Magic worlds are generic to a similar degree, except for some SPAAAAAACE stuff in the latter. If you have something to say about those points that isn't just "but I don't like Ashan", then I'm here for you.

 

[Metro]

Holy shit, there are people that follow Might & Magic lore? Honestly, who gives a shit? It's like Grimrock -- you don't need some fascinating story so long as the setting is decent, there's a logical consistency to the world, and good enough narrative to make what you're doing seem interesting/fun.

 

[Shadenuat]

Out of all the places, I never thought I'd meet the argument that time matters on the Codex

Of course time matters. M&M went through same evolution many other games did.

Nice fucking strawman there

Your statement which began the debate is nothing but strawmans and random jerking off, so? "Story wanking makes me sad", "Prestigious CODEX shouldn't do that", "So what? All M&Ms had shit stories, shit settings, who cares". Get your head out of your ass.

It is evident we will not agree, this debate is pointless

Then don't rush to start one, particularly when you have no clue what was implied to begin with. Yes, I believe that Ashan setting will break the experience for many. It may not be worst problem with the game, definitely not the last one, but it is the most obvious one, the one you see right at the beginning. And I commented on it first, because it was, you know, the *first thing* I particularly didn't like after I finished spider dungeon.

It's like Grimrock -- you don't need some fascinating story so long as the setting is decent, there's a logical consistency to the world, and good enough narrative to make what you're doing seem interesting/fun.

Yes, good enough narrative, something clever for player to be interested in exploration except another 100 coins from chest. We have the problem with that.

 

[Grunker]

I have no arguments, but dammit, I liked the old setting, and I hate Ashan

OK. More power to you. I just cannot possibly think of a more boring topic of discussion.

something clever for player to be interested in exploration except another 100 coins from chest

Yeah, like a cool dungeon with a good mystery, some puzzles to warm up the brain and some nice artifacts down there to reward your effort.......... like fucking Ashan can do as well as any Might & Magic setting, except with fewer fucking lasers.

 

[Shadenuat]

There are no mysteries to be found so far, no puzzles, and items seem token like in Diablo, with little modifiers, not artifacts. I only finished 2 dungeons yet though.

 

[Grunker]

There are no mysteries to be found so far, no puzzles, and items seem token like in Diablo, with little modifiers, not artifacts. I only finished 2 dungeons yet though.

Did I just say the game could be shit without proper mechanics? I think I did. And puzzles are mechanics. No interesting puzzles = obviously a serious detriment to exploration. THEN we're talking troubles.

As for itemization, I dunno, but if you read the dev blog you'll note that the itemization in the early access build is nowhere near what they're planning.

Here's a bit of a preview from my article by the way:

“So, itemization is basically crap right now,” he says, pondering. “Shops are supposed to replenish their products, and there should be diverse item drops with prefixes and suffixes. Fiery Axe of Doom and such. It'll come.” [...] “Yeah, itemization is one of the main things being worked on. We have relics like in the old games, but they work differently. You'll be able to level them up so they follow your progression, kind of.”