Mapping and notes (pre-contemporary)

[BarãodoDesterro]

Ladies and gentlemen;

I've decided to play some ancient stuff, but I don't know how to start (illustrating my mediocrity: I've always been a console player [from "Oblivion" to "Divinity Original Sin 2"]; the oldest wRPG I've finished is "Baldur's Gate" [but the game is, pretty much, contemporary — even more, I've played the Enchanced Edition]; I've defeated the first Garland [but I don't think jRPGs give experience towards their ocidental counterparts]).

I'm going to try (and finish) the following: "Wizardry I"; "Ultima I"; "Ultima IV"; "Dungeon Master"; "Pool of Radiance"; "Ultima Underworld"; "Ultima VII"; and "Fallout" — I will eventually play some "Wizardry VII" and "Wizardry VIII" (testing).

1. Which of the above should I map? I don't think I understand the concept of mapping.
2. How would one organize one's notes?

Sincerely regards,

 

[Catacombs]

How would one organize one's notes?

Put it all in notes.txt.

 

[octavius]

Wizardry 1 and Dungeon Master needs to be mapped.
For U4 I would at least map the towns. The overland is pretty big and has lots of random encounters, so unless you're a completionist don't trave it more than needed.
Pool of Radiance has area view for at least some of the maps-
Ultima Underworld has a very nice automap.

Use screenshots and .txt files to keep track of things. In UU you can also makes notes on the automap.

You can use software like Grid Cartographer (commercial) or "We Are Here" (or whatever it's called). Hell, some even use Excel.

 

[Morpheus Kitami]

2. How would one organize one's notes?

What Catacombs said, but if you're playing multiple games at once (you probably shouldn't in this case) have them be in different text files so you don't get confused.
Or just buy a notebook, hence why they're called...notebooks. If you want to do a map on physical paper, you'd be wise to get some graph paper, which isn't sold everywhere.

Also, you don't need to map Fallout or Ultima Underworld, they come with their own maps IIRC.

 

[Catacombs]

Or just buy a notebook, hence why they're called...notebooks. If you want to do a map on physical paper, you'd be wise to get some graph paper, which isn't sold everywhere.

If OP uses a notebook, I'd be curious to read through scans of his journey.

 

[Funposter]

Fallout is hardly ancient, so it doesn't really belong in the same category as the other games here. Beyond some "quirks" of its UI and the lack of a detailed quest log, Fallout is pretty damn modern. If you were able to manage Baldur's Gate you'll be fine.

Also, you don't need to map Fallout or Ultima Underworld, they come with their own maps IIRC.

Fallout has an automap feature which is totally pointless because you can scroll around at your leisure, and the world map is very easy to navigate. The biggest "dungeon" in the game is also like 4 or 5 rooms. It might be from 1996 but it's still fairly contemporary, since it kickstarted the revival of CRPGs in the late 90s and so is comparable to all of them in terms of user friendliness.

 

[Butter]

Most of those games don't require mapping, but in all cases besides Fallout and UU you should take notes. Grid Cartographer is a great mapping tool you can use for Proving Grounds and Dungeon Master.

 

[lukaszek]

you dont use notes or maps. You memorize and rage quit when it fails

 

[Fowyr]

Wizardry I

needs to be mapped fully.

Ultima IV

Needs to be mapped partially, in the dungeons.

Dungeon Master

Mapped fully as well. You are for a fun ride in this game.

Pool of Radiance

Map is unavailable only in some dungeons.

Ultima Underworld

Has a great map with a notes feature.

Ultima VII

Lol, no.

Fallout

It's modern game and has a map.

Wizardry VII

You have automap tool with a corresponding mapping skill.

Wizardry VIII

It's modern game. It has automap. Play Grimoire instead.

 

[d1r]

If you go with Dungeon Master, then there is no reason not to go with Wizardry 6 as well.

 

[BarãodoDesterro]

Put it all in notes.txt.

What Catacombs said, but if you're playing multiple games at once (you probably shouldn't in this case) have them be in different text files so you don't get confused. Or just buy a notebook, hence why they're called...notebooks. If you want to do a map on physical paper, you'd be wise to get some graph paper, which isn't sold everywhere. Also, you don't need to map Fallout or Ultima Underworld, they come with their own maps IIRC.

I've probably miswroten: it was more about the content, not the tools. How to partially (vulgarly) differentiate useful (needed) information from lore?
I'll use a normal notebook and a graph paper notebook (I already have them).

Wizardry 1 and Dungeon Master needs to be mapped. For U4 I would at least map the towns. The overland is pretty big and has lots of random encounters, so unless you're a completionist don't trave it more than needed. Pool of Radiance has area view for at least some of the maps- Ultima Underworld has a very nice automap. Use screenshots and .txt files to keep track of things. In UU you can also makes notes on the automap. You can use software like Grid Cartographer (commercial) or "We Are Here" (or whatever it's called). Hell, some even use Excel.

Most of those games don't require mapping, but in all cases besides Fallout and UU you should take notes. Grid Cartographer is a great mapping tool you can use for Proving Grounds and Dungeon Master.

Wizardry I needs to be mapped fully. Ultima IV Needs to be mapped partially, in the dungeons. Dungeon Master Mapped fully as well. You are for a fun ride in this game. Pool of Radiance Map is unavailable only in some dungeons. Ultima Underworld Has a great map with a notes feature. Ultima VII Lol, no. Fallout It's modern game and has a map. Wizardry VII You have automap tool with a corresponding mapping skill. Wizardry VIII It's modern game. It has automap. Play Grimoire instead.

Thank you a lot.
I know a thing or two about teleports and spinners; and imagine I should also highlight ladders and doors. That leads to two questions:
1. Monster and treasure encounters are random? If that is the case, should I only map the structure of the dungeon?
2. How to observe a qualified approach: what are the signs that I found spinners or teleports?

Fallout is hardly ancient, so it doesn't really belong in the same category as the other games here. Beyond some "quirks" of its UI and the lack of a detailed quest log, Fallout is pretty damn modern. If you were able to manage Baldur's Gate you'll be fine. Fallout has an automap feature which is totally pointless because you can scroll around at your leisure, and the world map is very easy to navigate. The biggest "dungeon" in the game is also like 4 or 5 rooms. It might be from 1996 but it's still fairly contemporary, since it kickstarted the revival of CRPGs in the late 90s and so is comparable to all of them in terms of user friendliness.

I considered using parentheses to highlight that I didn't think the question applied to "Fallout". Since I've never seen its engine, I was nervous nonetheless.

If you go with Dungeon Master, then there is no reason not to go with Wizardry 6 as well.

People (mainstream) seem to think that "Dungeon Master" is more important to the medium. I've bought the bundle on Steam, maybe I'll give it a try.

you dont use notes or maps. You memorize and rage quit when it fails

LOL





Thank you all!

 

[Bruma Hobo]

Ultima IV is pretty easy to navigate and offers cheap gems and the mapping spell, so you don't really have to map unless you enjoy doing so. You will have to take plenty of notes and occasionally RTFM though, and don't spoil your experience by reading an online guide.

If you want a more complete old-school experience, you could also play Quest for Glory I (aka Hero's Quest), Darklands and Daggerfall. You could also skip Ultima VII, unless you really want to play a clunky open world game that barely qualifies as an RPG.

 

[Saduj]

Play Ultima V instead of the first one.

 

[Fowyr]

Thank you a lot.
I know a thing or two about teleports and spinners; and imagine I should also highlight ladders and doors. That leads to two questions:
1. Monster and treasure encounters are random? If that is the case, should I only map the structure of the dungeon?

Depends on the game. In Wizardry some encounters are random, some are fixed with a certain monsters (Werdna being the obvious example), some are fixed, but with a random monsters from a certain pool. Pool of Radiance has both random encounters and fixed. Oh, these trolls in the slums and undead on the graveyard...

2. How to observe a qualified approach: what are the signs that I found spinners or teleports?

Depends on the game. Sometimes screen flickers, sometimes you will see something that was not there a second ago. "Endless corridor" from the DM-clones being the poster child of such puzzles. It's truly endless passage, where some square teleports you to the start. Usually it is disabled by secret button or circumvented by illusionary wall.
BTW, there is a little game, called To Hell with Guns, it really highlights some fine points of the mapping by hand.
https://rpgcodex.net/forums/threads...ns-and-note-of-the-outskirts-released.124351/

People (mainstream) seem to think that "Dungeon Master" is more important to the medium.

People are idiots. Wiz6 is a masterpiece. DM is important, being the founder of its own subgenre, but Wizardry 6 is a turning point for entire series, that is one of the cornerstones of RPGs.

 

[Morpheus Kitami]

I've probably miswroten: it was more about the content, not the tools. How to partially (vulgarly) differentiate useful (needed) information from lore?
I'll use a normal notebook and a graph paper notebook (I already have them).

What I do whenever I'm playing a game that needs notes is write down anything that looks important. Messages on walls, words said by one-time NPCs or otherwise unrepeatable dialog, things that the game draws attention to. Depending on the game you might end up with some information that you don't need or ends up being a red herring, unfortunately, that's how it is sometimes.

I know a thing or two about teleports and spinners; and imagine I should also highlight ladders and doors. That leads to two questions:
1. Monster and treasure encounters are random? If that is the case, should I only map the structure of the dungeon?

For Wizardry I and Dungeon Master, you should mark down everything that's fixed. In DM that's everything, but Wizardry I be cautious around monster encounters.

 

[Sweeper]

"Wizardry I"; "Ultima I"; "Ultima IV"; "Dungeon Master"; "Pool of Radiance"; "Ultima Underworld"

A braver man than I. Darklands is as far back as I'm willing to go.

 

[BarãodoDesterro]

Ultima IV is pretty easy to navigate and offers cheap gems and the mapping spell, so you don't really have to map unless you enjoy doing so. You will have to take plenty of notes and occasionally RTFM though, and don't spoil your experience by reading an online guide. If you want a more complete old-school experience, you could also play Quest for Glory I (aka Hero's Quest), Darklands and Daggerfall. You could also skip Ultima VII, unless you really want to play a clunky open world game that barely qualifies as an RPG.

Thank you for the tips and suggestions.
I'm really frightened by "Daggerfall" (I've finished the first "Arena" dungeon and could never understand moving with mouse — when I started "Daggerfall" and realized the game worked the same way I simply did not leave the room).
"Ultima VII" is controversy. I must play it.

Depends on the game. In Wizardry some encounters are random, some are fixed with a certain monsters (Werdna being the obvious example), some are fixed, but with a random monsters from a certain pool. Pool of Radiance has both random encounters and fixed. Oh, these trolls in the slums and undead on the graveyard... Depends on the game. Sometimes screen flickers, sometimes you will see something that was not there a second ago. "Endless corridor" from the DM-clones being the poster child of such puzzles. It's truly endless passage, where some square teleports you to the start. Usually it is disabled by secret button or circumvented by illusionary wall. BTW, there is a little game, called To Hell with Guns, it really highlights some fine points of the mapping by hand. https://rpgcodex.net/forums/threads...ns-and-note-of-the-outskirts-released.124351/ People are idiots. Wiz6 is a masterpiece. DM is important, being the founder of its own subgenre, but Wizardry 6 is a turning point for entire series, that is one of the cornerstones of RPGs.

What I do whenever I'm playing a game that needs notes is write down anything that looks important. Messages on walls, words said by one-time NPCs or otherwise unrepeatable dialog, things that the game draws attention to. Depending on the game you might end up with some information that you don't need or ends up being a red herring, unfortunately, that's how it is sometimes. For Wizardry I and Dungeon Master, you should mark down everything that's fixed. In DM that's everything, but Wizardry I be cautious around monster encounters.

I'm screenshotting everything. I'll use them after I finish "Divinity 2", "Final Fantasy XIII" (don't ask) and "Morrowind".

A braver man than I. Darklands is as far back as I'm willing to go.

Play Ultima V instead of the first one.

I'm actually more afraid to play the newer ones. Supposedly, "Ultima I" can be beaten under 15 hours and "Wizardry I" under 30 hours.


Thank you all!

 

[Fowyr]

I'm really frightened by "Daggerfall"

You should be. This game stole a countless hours of my life. I don't regret it, though.

could never understand moving with mouse

What? You use keyboard to move, duh.

 

[Desiderius]

Wizardry 1 and Dungeon Master needs to be mapped.
For U4 I would at least map the towns. The overland is pretty big and has lots of random encounters, so unless you're a completionist don't trave it more than needed.
Pool of Radiance has area view for at least some of the maps-
Ultima Underworld has a very nice automap.

Use screenshots and .txt files to keep track of things. In UU you can also makes notes on the automap.

You can use software like Grid Cartographer (commercial) or "We Are Here" (or whatever it's called). Hell, some even use Excel.

Pencil and graph paper has always worked fine. Especially good for Eye of the Beholder series.

 

[mondblut]

You can use software like Grid Cartographer (commercial) or "We Are Here" (or whatever it's called). Hell, some even use Excel.

Doing it on grid paper the old school way is way more convenient than dragging lines in some software tool. Even if you have 2 monitors, mapping walls in software requires more effort than playing the game itself. Only paper is real.

 

[KeighnMcDeath]

Akalabeth, Escape from Mt Drash, Ultima II, and Ultima VIII are the ones you should focus on.

 

[octavius]

You can use software like Grid Cartographer (commercial) or "We Are Here" (or whatever it's called). Hell, some even use Excel.

Doing it on grid paper the old school way is way more convenient than dragging lines in some software tool. Even if you have 2 monitors, mapping walls in software requires more effort than playing the game itself. Only paper is real.

With paper it's easier to improvise.
But with software it's easier to correct mistakes and not least to remember where my old maps are.

Spoiler

Lilura, you spamming shit bot, stop stalking me

 

[Fowyr]

Spoiler

Lilura, you spamming shit bot, stop stalking me

Welcome to "buttmad grandpas" club. She is very buttmad that we are buttmad grandpas or something. Just ignore her idiotic shenanigans.

 

[KeighnMcDeath]

Yeah, most if my fun was mapping by hand. Notes were haphazzard during my c64 years, amiga, nes, and 486. I mean, pure dos didn't make it easy until i was dumped another pc by my aunt. Play on one and write notes on the other. I can't recall what i used on dos to write..

I also don't recall entirely what i used for screencaptures. Screenthief or neopaint/grab.

 

[lukaszek]

why would you want to play overly complicated game when loop hero exists
https://store.steampowered.com/app/1282730/Loop_Hero/