Let's brainstorm a good D20 class system.

[Lagole Gon]

This thread was inspired by the upcoming Pathfinder: Wrath of the Righteous game.

I got a headache after realizing how many classes, kits, prestige classes, mythic paths and fuck knows what are in the game.
It gave me nightmares about Eldritch Scoundrel mixing with rogue, wizard and Arcane Trickster. Repeating dreams about RANGERS taking levels in HUNTER and Sacred Huntsmaster... the horror...
It's all so... unelegant.

That's why I want to do some brainstorming and talk about class mechanics.
What should one avoid when designing class system? Is there such a thing as too many classes?
What about specific classes? Do monks even belong in a generic fantasy setting? No, they don't.

(Discuss!)

 

[nikolokolus]

I'll play whatever, but if I have my way, I'd much rather play something classless/leveless (Traveller, BRP, Mythras, etc.)

But, since you're asking about a "good D20 class system" I guess I'll bite. I like strong niche protection, but some broad skills that can be learned and improved over time, and/or levels that have weight and real impact. Lamentations of the Flame Princess, Stars Without Number/Worlds Without Number, and DCC RPG are all games I find things to like about their design for one reason or another. So I think the more generic the classes up front the better (Core 3 works, but 4 is fine too if you want priests/clerics to be baked into your implied setting) and then if you want to specialize in certain ways as you gain levels I think that's a decent way to go too -- not 3.x D&D and Pathfinder prestige classes, but the accumulation of certain generic feats/powers that are independent of class.

 

[Eldagusto]

Haha I love that Class Systems Suck is the most popular vote! I do hate levels and Class based games. It takes me out of emersion and feels like a Video Game.

 

[J1M]

I prefer selecting a primary and secondary class, most notably seen in Final Fantasy XI's job system, over a multiclass decision space where 99% of choices are 'wrong'.

Superficially, that approach might look similar to an alternate/complimentary progression path like other games have for the main character. A secondary choice from the same set is better though because players can express more creativity and the choices available are less alien. I also find this approach superior to a classless system because those tend to result in degenerate builds where everyone has a ranged attack, a heal spell, and one of whatever else the specific game favors.

 

[JamesDixon]

Why mess with perfection when you have Fantasy Hero or GURPS Fantasy? Both are point based with packages used to define your character. You still have control over what you want your character to be as well.

 

[Viata]

It's impossible to have a good class system if you are using d20. d20 is a shit system.

 

[JamesDixon]

It's impossible to have a good class system if you are using d20. d20 is a shit system.

I disagree since we have the near perfection of AD&D 1E and 2E.

 

[Viata]

It's impossible to have a good class system if you are using d20. d20 is a shit system.

I disagree since we have the near perfection of AD&D 1E and 2E.

Ok, I'll give you that. But ignoring them, you have nothing else that is worth that system. I prefer 1E, btw.

 

[JamesDixon]

It's impossible to have a good class system if you are using d20. d20 is a shit system.

I disagree since we have the near perfection of AD&D 1E and 2E.

Ok, I'll give you that. But ignoring them, you have nothing else that is worth that system. I prefer 1E, btw.

I don't consider d20 to be D&D, so it's all good. 1E is pretty good, but has some jank to it.

 

[deuxhero]

Saga Edition, WotC's final d20 product, did it well. There's only 5 base classes (7 counting the two NPC classes), Soldier, Scout, Scoundrel, Noble (perhaps better named "officer") and Jedi (plus non-heroic and beast as NPC classes that are strictly worse than everything). Despite this small number of classes, the only fixed parts of each class are its chassis (BAB, HD, class skills) and starting feats/proficiencies and all 5 classes gain a class talent from their class's list of talents (or one of the handful of class-free talents characters meeting certain conditions can take) at every odd level and bonus feat at every even level. Each class talent is a unique feature that lets a character do new things, so even the same class or combination of classes can function completely differently: One scoundrel can be based off moving around during combat to activate talents that inflict penalties to enemies hit after moving, while another can make bombs out of nowhere and throw large volleys, and one soldier/noble can be focused on buffing allies while debuffing enemies with covering fire while a second can be focused on gaining a suit of tricked out armor that it exploits to devastating effect. The only base class talents with requirements are those that require another talent or two and (with one exception that was likely an error) any base class talent can be obtained by level 5. Multiclassing is highly encouraged, though unlike standard d20 you only get one of a classes starting feats if you multiclass into it (a scoundrel dipping into soldier only gets proficiency in rifles OR in light armor, not both).

Prestige classes exist in SE, but they're almost all side-grades. At odd levels they gain a talent (picking either from a tree to that class or a unique combination of base class talent trees), but at even levels and level 1 they gain a unique class feature. Most of these class features are a bit more powerful than talents, but not nearly as flexible, and are locked into prestige classes mainly to curb their scaling with level. It's perfectly viable to be single class, single class with a few levels in another class, half and half, one class into a prestige class you stay in till it runs out of levels, two mixed classes into a prestige class, one class that takes a dip into a prestige class and more. Non-basic gear is also never required and rarely gives general bonuses to fighting (beyond armor, which requires non-trival resources to use effectively without penalty) or skills and instead acts a bag of tricks you can dig into.

In this system "magic" (force powers) is almost entirely classless. To use force powers a character needs the force proficiency feat, training in the Use the Force skill, and at least one instance of the Force Training feat which gives 1+wisdom mod number of powers that can be used once per encounter and scale with Use the Force results. Jedi as a class has talents that focus on lightsaber stuff, and getting extra effects off Use the Force with most Force. The system's biggest flaw as a whole is the contents of the core book, which has the best force stuff but weak non-force user stuff since it sticks too closely to standard d20 content. The future books dramatically improve non-force users while only offering side-grades to force users.

For a fantasy game, the classes would likely be Warrior, Rogue, and Spellcaster. Each of these classes would get talent trees that emulate traditional classes of a certain category. For example Warrior might have a Rage talent tree (barbarian's rage), a Weapon Specialization talent tree (3E Fighter), a Guardian talent tree (boost defenses, control area and give reason to attack the fighter), and a Holy Warrior tree (get non-overt magical bonuses over actual casting) while Rogue has Sneak Attack (get bonuses when striking an enemy when they're at a disadvantage and make it easier to trigger the rest of the tree), Wilderness Mastery (Ranger's stuff), and Inspiration (Bard's non casting stuff). The real question is how to do magic in such a system. The best I can come up with is Magic Training giving a number of spells and some kind of resource to use them ('spell points") with while power scales off a a "caster level" each class gains inverse to their fighting ability (fighter gets low, rogue gets medium, spellcaster gets high) with talents that fiddle with this (warrior might be able to take a talent that gives them full warrior level as caster level for a particular school or two, so long as it's only used on themselves). Spells would have a base form that's always usable, but have more powerful forms usable with spell points. This would kill Vancian casting, but good riddance: That only existed because GG was inspired too hard by Jack Vance's work rather than an actual mechanical or thematic reason for having it.

 

[Mr. Magniloquent]

D20 is a trap. While simple, speedy, and intuitive, their linear nature breaks the nearer you are to either end of the range.

 

[Rilmani404]

The way Pathfinder handles archetypes and 5e handles subclasses make sense to me, but I don’t think they’re the best option. I believe your base character should have 0 class levels, 1+ feats, their ability scores set up, background/trait abilities, and racial abilities. Then you acquire points/experience which can be spent on class levels, feats, permanent ability score increases, or magic items (if items require experience to craft). Proficiencies in skills and saving throws would be packaged into a feat or classes.

What I’m getting at is that d20 games shouldn’t stuff so much power in classes; the character building/upgrading system should look a lot like superhero games with the freedom to assign points. You should be able to choose tightly-focused classes, or raw stats, or feat trees, or continually improve one or more items as your main gimmick. Classes should have mechanics that are too complicated or too powerful for a feat chain (I’m assuming that class levels would cost more than a feat). For example Stunning Strike (3.5 DnD monk) should either be a feat chain or a class on its own. Not necessarily a 20-level class, but more like a prestige class which is focused on a small set of related abilities. Some classes would focus on reactions or add-ons for attacks, some would focus on defenses, some would offer something like metamagic to improve existing features… on and on, whenever a feature is too grand for a feat chain.

 

[mediocrepoet]

The way Pathfinder handles archetypes and 5e handles subclasses make sense to me, but I don’t think they’re the best option. I believe your base character should have 0 class levels, 1+ feats, their ability scores set up, background/trait abilities, and racial abilities. Then you acquire points/experience which can be spent on class levels, feats, permanent ability score increases, or magic items (if items require experience to craft). Proficiencies in skills and saving throws would be packaged into a feat or classes.

What I’m getting at is that d20 games shouldn’t stuff so much power in classes; the character building/upgrading system should look a lot like superhero games with the freedom to assign points. You should be able to choose tightly-focused classes, or raw stats, or feat trees, or continually improve one or more items as your main gimmick. Classes should have mechanics that are too complicated or too powerful for a feat chain (I’m assuming that class levels would cost more than a feat). For example Stunning Strike (3.5 DnD monk) should either be a feat chain or a class on its own. Not necessarily a 20-level class, but more like a prestige class which is focused on a small set of related abilities. Some classes would focus on reactions or add-ons for attacks, some would focus on defenses, some would offer something like metamagic to improve existing features… on and on, whenever a feature is too grand for a feat chain.

This reminds me of a thought a friend of mine had years ago where he wanted to basically make d20 classless and you would buy upgrades with your XP like +1 BAB, +1 saving throw, etc.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

I absolutely loathe unrestricted multiclassing. Just go with classless at that point.

 

[Rilmani404]

I absolute loathe unrestricted multiclassing. Just go with classless at that point.

How do you feel about ability score-restricted multiclassing like in 5e D&D? Or in 3.5 Prestige Classes, which were restricted by skills, feats and many more requirements?

What about a final fantasy type system where you have a Primary Job and a Secondary Job, each giving you abilities? Would locking in the primary job and leaving the secondary role open be “enough” for you?

 

[Rilmani404]

Saga Edition, WotC's final d20 product, did it well. There's only 5 base classes (7 counting the two NPC classes), Soldier, Scout, Scoundrel, Noble (perhaps better named "officer") and Jedi (plus non-heroic and beast as NPC classes that are strictly worse than everything). Despite this small number of classes, the only fixed parts of each class are its chassis (BAB, HD, class skills) and starting feats/proficiencies and all 5 classes gain a class talent from their class's list of talents (or one of the handful of class-free talents characters meeting certain conditions can take) at every odd level and bonus feat at every even level. Each class talent is a unique feature that lets a character do new things, so even the same class or combination of classes can function completely differently: One scoundrel can be based off moving around during combat to activate talents that inflict penalties to enemies hit after moving, while another can make bombs out of nowhere and throw large volleys, and one soldier/noble can be focused on buffing allies while debuffing enemies with covering fire while a second can be focused on gaining a suit of tricked out armor that it exploits to devastating effect. The only base class talents with requirements are those that require another talent or two and (with one exception that was likely an error) any base class talent can be obtained by level 5. Multiclassing is highly encouraged, though unlike standard d20 you only get one of a classes starting feats if you multiclass into it (a scoundrel dipping into soldier only gets proficiency in rifles OR in light armor, not both).

Prestige classes exist in SE, but they're almost all side-grades. At odd levels they gain a talent (picking either from a tree to that class or a unique combination of base class talent trees), but at even levels and level 1 they gain a unique class feature. Most of these class features are a bit more powerful than talents, but not nearly as flexible, and are locked into prestige classes mainly to curb their scaling with level. It's perfectly viable to be single class, single class with a few levels in another class, half and half, one class into a prestige class you stay in till it runs out of levels, two mixed classes into a prestige class, one class that takes a dip into a prestige class and more. Non-basic gear is also never required and rarely gives general bonuses to fighting (beyond armor, which requires non-trival resources to use effectively without penalty) or skills and instead acts a bag of tricks you can dig into.

In this system "magic" (force powers) is almost entirely classless. To use force powers a character needs the force proficiency feat, training in the Use the Force skill, and at least one instance of the Force Training feat which gives 1+wisdom mod number of powers that can be used once per encounter and scale with Use the Force results. Jedi as a class has talents that focus on lightsaber stuff, and getting extra effects off Use the Force with most Force. The system's biggest flaw as a whole is the contents of the core book, which has the best force stuff but weak non-force user stuff since it sticks too closely to standard d20 content. The future books dramatically improve non-force users while only offering side-grades to force users.

I like the sound of this. How compatible is Saga Edition with dnd 3.5 or other WotC products? Did you play it, GMing or as a player? Was it well organized and helpful for GMs attempting to put enemies, locations, or anything? It sounds like you’re giving this system a 9/10, but do you have any criticisms for it or do you favor any other games over it?

You know what? This system sounds like it gets away from the tier four adventuring problems (epic spell casting, crazy ability scores or other modifiers, overpowered equipment). It sounds like (if you aren’t using Jedi or force powers) you could keep leveling into 20+ without everything breaking down. All enemy stats probably need to be kicked up a notch if you have high level force users though, depending on their limitations. The fact that future books boast non-force uses sounds promising.

For a fantasy game, the classes would likely be Warrior, Rogue, and Spellcaster. Each of these classes would get talent trees that emulate traditional classes of a certain category. For example Warrior might have a Rage talent tree (barbarian's rage), a Weapon Specialization talent tree (3E Fighter), a Guardian talent tree (boost defenses, control area and give reason to attack the fighter), and a Holy Warrior tree (get non-overt magical bonuses over actual casting) while Rogue has Sneak Attack (get bonuses when striking an enemy when they're at a disadvantage and make it easier to trigger the rest of the tree), Wilderness Mastery (Ranger's stuff), and Inspiration (Bard's non casting stuff). The real question is how to do magic in such a system. The best I can come up with is Magic Training giving a number of spells and some kind of resource to use them ('spell points") with while power scales off a a "caster level" each class gains inverse to their fighting ability (fighter gets low, rogue gets medium, spellcaster gets high) with talents that fiddle with this (warrior might be able to take a talent that gives them full warrior level as caster level for a particular school or two, so long as it's only used on themselves). Spells would have a base form that's always usable, but have more powerful forms usable with spell points. This would kill Vancian casting, but good riddance: That only existed because GG was inspired too hard by Jack Vance's work rather than an actual mechanical or thematic reason for having it.

You might get a kick out of this page, “How would you make D&D 100 years ago?” Rather, 107 years ago now. The author rips out a lot of the clutter like vancian casting.

 

[deuxhero]

I like the sound of this. How compatible is Saga Edition with dnd 3.5 or other WotC products? [...] It sounds like you’re giving this system a 9/10, but do you have any criticisms for it or do you favor any other games over it?

Virtually not at all. So many of the internal assumptions differ any imports beyond some feats that don't interact with combat and don't raise numbers, or guidelines on handling certain things (this is a DC X check for this skill in this other rule system, so it should be a DC X check for that skill here too) would ultimately be homebrew heavily inspired by or stupidly broken (in either sense) as a result.

As for the flaws: The big one is the stuff it inherits from core d20 system that wasn't fixed, but very well could have been: Most of the classic feat taxes are still present (though the bonus feats at odd level reduce the sting), charisma is still useless for anyone that isn't a caster, feint user, or diplomat, the balance in the core book is all over the place (stuff is useless or awesome, little middle ground), some skills that should have been merged (and are near useless on their own) haven't been, and backgrounds that let you pick skills to have regardless of class aren't part of the core rules but an optional rule tucked away in one of the source books. Beyond that, the big issues are
1: As mentioned above, all the stuff needed to make an awesome force user is in the core book, but everyone else is comparatively lame without other books.
2: Attacks that go off a character's skill mod but oppose an enemy's defense (saving through). The scaling on the two and access to Skill Focus (+5 bonus to that one skill) makes it very easy to get good at at lower levels. This wouldn't be a big issue, if the attacks that use skill mod weren't also the remaining save or die effects
3: The condition track (a system where you take increasing penalties the more wounds you take) works most of the time, except when dealing with special abilities that just lower a character down the track. Since the bottom of the track is death or unconsciousness, one of the most powerful options is to stack as many as possible and apply them as much as possible (some of the easily obtained ones are rider effects, so sticking them on multiple attacks). This can be greatly mitigated with the one line "Other than damage in excess of a character's damage threshold, effects from the same source that lower a character's condition track can not lower their condition track again until the subject has recovered."
4: Due to criticals always hitting, the rule that non-point defenses get a -20 to hit small targets tends to not work as well as it should. Later books acknowledge this by including a system to turn capital ships into what are essentially terrain features for starfighter fights (since most fights with them present are "get away" or "support the ally capital ship so it can destroy that").
5: Weapons have reasonable realistic ranges, but setting is one that favors indoor fights so much you'll rarely take range penalties, but has no penalties for using a large weapon indoors or at short range so long as you're past melee distance.
6: The only information on hyperspace travel time is relative (this is twice as fast as that), so you don't really know how long it takes to go from X to Y. In many ways a setting issue, since WEG never really tied them down and future writers always treated them as important for the plot (travel was either fast enough or not fast enough). There's a house rule out there that essentially goes down to "8 hours per square of maintained trade road, 24 hours per square of difficult area, 16 hours per square of everything else", but it's just a house rule.

 

[Poseidon00]

We already have the perfect system, it's called 3.5

 

[Eldagusto]

You could borrow the XY axis from the Whitewolf games. Where you have a splat the character didn’t choose and was born/created into and a political class that fits their philosophy and a Z axis of a unique sub group that is part of their class. This would be essentially like D&D but you treat the Race like classes with levels and customizable growth.

 

[Lagole Gon]

Okay guys, listen!


New ability score system

Strength (Str) - stays the same. Save throws against some constraining spells. Takes over intimidation? Takes over intimidation with a right feat?
Dexterity (Dex) - stays mostly the same. Keeps classic DEX save throws.
Constitution (Con) - stays mostly the same. Keeps classic CON save throws. Max negative hit points depend on it. No big hp growth from leveling, so it's much more important.
Wits (Wit) Intelligence (Int) - Intelligence. Takes over perception related stuff. Some save throws against illusions and very specific spells (labyrinth). Takes over lying? Takes over lying with a right feat? Takes over initiative?
Character (Char) or maybe Will (Wil)- it's Wisdom plus Charisma. Makes it sound less silly on some creatures. I can imagine a wolf with a dominating character, but not a wise wolf. Keeps wisdom save throws. Takes over intimidation and diplomacy. Influences more instinctual abilities (paladin gimmicks, barbarian rage). Requirement for feats that allow you to stay awake with negative hit points?
We remove Charisma (Cha), it's now part of the Wits and Character.

It's just a sketch. So, what do you think?

 

[Lagi]

Okay guys, listen!


New ability score system

Strength (Str) - stays the same. Save throws against some constraining spells. Takes over intimidation? Takes over intimidation with a right feat?
Dexterity (Dex) - stays mostly the same. Loses initiative rolls. Keeps classic DEX save throws.
Constitution (Con) - stays the same. Keeps classic CON save throws.
Wits (Wit) Intelligence (Int) - Intelligence. Also, it takes over initiative and perception related stuff. Some save throws against illusions and very specific spells (labyrinth). Takes over lying? Takes over lying with a right feat?
Character (Char) - it's Wisdom with a new name plus Charisma. Makes it sound less silly on some creatures. I can imagine a wolf with a dominating character, but not a wise wolf. Keeps wisdom save throws. Takes over intimidation and diplomacy.
We remove Charisma (Cha), it's now part of the Wits and Character.

It's just a sketch. So, what do you think?

I came to the following conclusion:

Strength - how strong, tough and big you are. Cover Constitution. How resistant you are to poison, damage, hard work, harsh condition, disease ... how many HP you have.

"but but you can be slim, but healthy and resist to cold"
then you have low Strength attribute and resistance to cold ability.

"is that not make strength even more powerful?"
make other stats more important then. Remove damage from strength - its more believable. When Bodybuilder punch you in the chest you will have bruise, when a kid stab you with a knife you are probably dead.

Dexterity - same. use for hit check with throwing weapons. Dodging.

Intelligence - same. this name sound too modern IMO. I would call it Reason, fit better to fantasy settings.

Will - Charisma, character. same thing. How good you influence others. How good you are at begging your gods for wonders. How good you are at convincing others. How resistant to fear/charm you are.

"ok, so i jump into this frozen lake and dive for fish" "GM: ?!... roll for Will"

Perception - ability to find hidden passage, treasure, spot opponents before (initiative), use for shooting with bow/xbow (i know a lot of you disagree here (it's Agility!), but have you ever been in shooting range? (yes you were) even in such "laboratory" condition it takes a lot to properly see through the gun sight to aim at the target), use for sneaking, used to hear something, it's a save roll "in the corner of your eye you notice someone's charging at you" - it is roll very often in narrative part or pnpRPGs.

"but it was always Wisdomo/Inteligence!"
it make no sense for animals to have high intelligence, just to be able to detect intruders. Old, deaf and blind with -20 glasses wizards are not (necessary) stupid.

 

[Thac0]

I have never seen a class system that was more effective and fun than the one of Final Fantasy Tactics.

Your class abilities are separated into three types: Actions, Reactions and Passives.
Actions are your moveset, the action command of a White Mage ecompasses the entire White spell list.
Reactions are counterattacks or evasive maneuvers.
And passives can be just about anything.

The main class you use decides your attributes and one of the equipped action sets. A knight has always access to his chivalry skills, a black mage can always cast black magic.
The other three slots (action, reaction, passive) you can freely fill with abilities from all other unlocked classes.

It is very fit for the class design, as the game has dozens of classes, and most are not available from level 1 and are more like prestige classes. You can't really fuck up your build permanently, as every unlocked ability from a class is purely positive. You took a bunch of monk levels and realised that the class is not that good? Just change class and level something else, and you can even equip the abilities you gained as a monk. At worst you wasted time leveling a class you no longer use.

It takes the strengths of a class system in clear class identities and class fantasies, together with naturally creating very mixed teams with clear role distribution, and combines them with the freedom of classless systems by allowing you to build your own unfair demigod by cherry picking the best abilities from four different classes.

And all that while being not even a fraction as complex to handle as something like Pathfinder or 3.5 DnD.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

Okay guys, listen!


New ability score system

Strength (Str) - stays the same. Save throws against some constraining spells. Takes over intimidation? Takes over intimidation with a right feat?
Dexterity (Dex) - stays mostly the same. Keeps classic DEX save throws.
Constitution (Con) - stays mostly the same. Keeps classic CON save throws. Max negative hit points depend on it. No big hp growth from leveling, so it's much more important.
Wits (Wit) Intelligence (Int) - Intelligence. Takes over perception related stuff. Some save throws against illusions and very specific spells (labyrinth). Takes over lying? Takes over lying with a right feat? Takes over initiative?
Character (Char) or maybe Will (Wil)- it's Wisdom plus Charisma. Makes it sound less silly on some creatures. I can imagine a wolf with a dominating character, but not a wise wolf. Keeps wisdom save throws. Takes over intimidation and diplomacy. Influences more instinctual abilities (paladin gimmicks, barbarian rage). Requirement for feats that allow you to stay awake with negative hit points?
We remove Charisma (Cha), it's now part of the Wits and Character.

It's just a sketch. So, what do you think?

The most important part of making an ability score system is to first pick an acronym.

Dexterity
Endurance
Charisma
Luck
Intelligence
Nerve
Energy

 

[Lagole Gon]

Okay guys, listen! Again!



New NEW ability score system!

Strength (Str) - stays the same. Save throws against some constraining spells.
Constitution (Con) - stays mostly the same. We can make it more important by introducing more stingy HP system.

Agility (Agi) - Old Dex. Looses initiative rolls. Looses some manual skills.
Awareness (Awa) - Initiative, manual skills, save throws against illusions and confusion.

Intelligence (Int) - Stays mostly the same.
Will (Wil) - Most important save throw stat. Instinctual magic stat. Stat for special abilities, like paladin powers or barbarian rage.

Problems:
Archery - Agility or Awareness? Well, I have a radical solution. Throwing and short range archery uses Agility. Long distance archery - you have to throw TWICE! Once with Agility and once with Awareness. It's a major and somewhat unelegant nerf but it makes sense. Long distance archery is a really difficult thing.

Charisma - fuck charisma. It's all skills now. You want a charismatic but dim character? Just make a character with lower Intelligence and invest skills and feats into appropriate skills.

I think this system covers most fantasy archetypes pretty well. If you want something more unusual it will be solved by unique character traits.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

Okay guys, listen! Again!



New NEW ability score system!

Strength (Str) - stays the same. Save throws against some constraining spells.
Constitution (Con) - stays mostly the same. We can make it more important by introducing more stingy HP system.

Agility (Agi) - Old Dex. Looses initiative rolls. Looses some manual skills.
Awareness (Awa) - Initiative, manual skills, save throws against illusions and confusion.

Intelligence (Int) - Stays mostly the same.
Will (Wil) - Most important save throw stat. Instinctual magic stat. Stat for special abilities, like paladin powers or barbarian rage.

Problems:
Archery - Agility or Awareness? Well, I have a radical solution. Throwing and short range archery uses Agility. Long distance archery - you have to throw TWICE! Once with Agility and once with Awareness. It's a major and somewhat unelegant nerf but it makes sense. Long distance archery is a really difficult thing.

Charisma - fuck charisma. It's all skills now. You want a charismatic but dim character? Just make a character with lower Intelligence and invest skills and feats into appropriate skills.

I think it covers most fantasy archetypes pretty well. If you want something more unusual it will be solved by unique character traits.

wtf is SCAAIW?