Interview Leon Boyarsky talks to CGM

[Vault Dweller]

Tags: Troika Games

<a href=http://www.cgonline.com>CGM</a> has posted a post-mortem <a href=http://www.cgonline.com/content/view/366/2/>interview</a> with Troika's Leon
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<blockquote><i>When did you and the rest of the company realize that Troika Games might not survive past the release of Bloodlines?</i>
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It was about a month after Bloodlines’ release that it became apparent we were not going to be landing a contract.
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<i>While Bloodlines was critically acclaimed, Activision did not do a lot of marketing and publicity just prior to its release and it also shipped to stores the same week as Half-Life 2. Do you feel those factors adversely affected sales of the game?</i>
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I think that they definitely affected the initial sales at least, though I know Activision would disagree with me. Since Bloodlines did have the best marketing of any of Troika’s games, it’s kind of hard to judge the affect of that aspect on the release.
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<i>In your letter to No Mutants Allowed, you hinted that this may not be quite the end for Troika. Is it possible that you and other members of the team might start a new developer with the Troika name attached?</i>
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Tim, Jason and myself are trying to decide what we’re going to do next and at the moment, none of us really has any idea what we want to do. While I’d like to believe Troika will come back, I doubt it will actually happen.</blockquote>
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Leon has also expressed some interest in working with Bethesda on Fallout, although that sounds more like a polite thing to say than anything else.
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Thanks, <b>DemonKing</b>
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[Volourn]

That would be dumb on his part. I may rag on Troika; but Bethesda is gonna completely butcher FO3. There is no need for those who worked on Fo to help them.

 

[Sol Invictus]

One thing that we definitely learned was that to have a great team you need great leads – and we couldn’t be great leads when we were busy running the business, managing finances, etc. We were in the process of looking for someone to run the business side of things when we closed.

Gee, you think?!

 

[Jed]

It would be a smart move for Bethesda to try to secure the service of the top three Troikans--for consultant positions, if for no other reason. It would at least provide them with a bit of legitimacy in developing FO3.

 

[Pope_Viper]

I don't know about that, it smacks of a "Carsten" type of tactic.

 

[NeutralMilkHotel]

I don't know about that, it smacks of a "Carsten" type of tactic.

Except it doesn't stink of bullshit. Carsten had no chance to get the licence (I'm betting he barely tried in any case). The members they did hire worked on the fall, While if Bethesda did hire Cain or whoever, they'd be able to work on the game.
I see no carsten in that.

 

[Ellester]

That would be dumb on his part. I may rag on Troika; but Bethesda is gonna completely butcher FO3. There is no need for those who worked on Fo to help them.

I doubt Bethseda wants to take on designers that worked on the original Fallout. I know no one wants to hear this, but I’m sure Bethseda want FO3 to be their own game, meaning their own story, their own ideas and everything else. I highly doubt they want Tim Cain telling them what should be or not be in FO3.

 

[dojoteef]

Damn, I'm feeling like Exitium saying this, but "I TOLD YOU SO!" is all I can say. No where in that interview did it seem apparent Troika went down for any other reason than their own blunders. The fact that they point out they had difficulty running the financials while also being the team leads I think speaks volumes.

And here's the part I loved the most from that interview:

In the developer's lifetime they created three games, including 2004's acclaimed first person RPG Vampire The Masquarade: Bloodlines. However, the sales for the game were dissapointing

All the people stating Troika should have been been able to keep afloat from royalties from Bloodlines can now shut the fuck up.

That is all.

 

[Surlent]

The sales must have been dissapointing to Activision, considering how much effort they put in BL PR campaign. Bradstreet art, Janette hooker, dinners for game press in fetish clubs, years of production, licensing Source. Activision paid all that. I suspect they were expecting a real hit.
They got it, but not just the way they wanted.

It's still shame Troika's down. Arguing and what-ifs don't much change that.

I can't but just categorize Troika in the same unfortunate dev houses among Black Isle and Looking Glass.

 

[NeverwinterKnight]

And here's the part I loved the most from that interview:

In the developer's lifetime they created three games, including 2004's acclaimed first person RPG Vampire The Masquarade: Bloodlines. However, the sales for the game were dissapointing

All the people stating Troika should have been been able to keep afloat from royalties from Bloodlines can now shut the fuck up.

the planetvampire fanbois must be in denial when they read that. theyll probably say that part of the article is made up.

 

[Sheriff05]

Damn, I'm feeling like Exitium saying this, but "I TOLD YOU SO!" is all I can say. No where in that interview did it seem apparent Troika went down for any other reason than their own blunders. The fact that they point out they had difficulty running the financials while also being the team leads I think speaks volumes.

And here's the part I loved the most from that interview:

In the developer's lifetime they created three games, including 2004's acclaimed first person RPG Vampire The Masquarade: Bloodlines. However, the sales for the game were dissapointing

All the people stating Troika should have been been able to keep afloat from royalties from Bloodlines can now shut the fuck up.

That is all.

Dojo, I am becoming a Rex style flip flopper on my feelings to whether you are fucking moron or not. Did you not read the next fucking line of the interview.

Yes, and it’s becoming worse all the time. To survive you either need to be huge and financially independent or tiny and working out of your garage.

What don't you understand about the shitty fucking state of non-existence for mid-level developers in this fucked up industry?. You can put 2 and 2 together can't you? As we've all said a million times now. YEAH TROIKA FUCKED UP, but their management fuck ups alone are hardly the end all and beat all of their undoing. Why the fuck couldn't they secure another deal with cool PA and tech demo? Because no US publisher wants to bank roll anything creative or cool they only want to bankroll the SLAM DUNK!!. This idea some of you fuck heads have that some suit at Atari, or Activision actually thinks "Hmm, these guys make buggy games, and I hear they don't have an office manager, Let's pass! is moronic. They simply call the bean counters and ask what the profit margin was on Troikas last game and go "Hmm, niche market" lets find a GTA clone or another asshole developing shitty Star Wars game # 25, that will sell!
Publishers in the US only want bankroll shit that sells to fucking morons. Figure this shit out already, You've got stupid balls trying to say "I told you so".

 

[Jed]

I doubt Bethseda wants to take on designers that worked on the original Fallout. I know no one wants to hear this, but I’m sure Bethseda want FO3 to be their own game, meaning their own story, their own ideas and everything else. I highly doubt they want Tim Cain telling them what should be or not be in FO3.

But they don't have to actually listen to Tim or Leonard or Jason--simply having them "on the team" lends a huge amount of legitmacy and is a stick that Beth can wave at angry FO fans.

 

[tilting_msh]

Why the fuck couldn't they secure another deal with cool PA and tech demo? Because no US publisher wants to bank roll anything creative or cool they only want to bankroll the SLAM DUNK!!. This idea some of you fuck heads have that some suit at Atari, or Activision actually thinks "Hmm, these guys make buggy games, and I hear they don't have an office manager, Let's pass! is moronic.

I hear you, but I honestly wonder - and I'm not saying this to be combative/a prick - if Troika might have gotten themselves a reputation in the industry of being somewhat difficult to work with. (Poor) Business management plays into this of course, but also the fact that Troika had on more than one occasion pointed the finger (either directly or indirectly via trained fanboys) at everybody else under the sun (usually thier publisher, which I'm certain must burn a few bridges) for the sorry state of their games. Even if it were true, and Troika could not be blamed for 1% of the problems their games faced, it surely can't be a wise business decision to blame the boss, can it?

 

[Sheriff05]

I hear you, but I honestly wonder - and I'm not saying this to be combative/a prick - if Troika might have gotten themselves a reputation in the industry of being somewhat difficult to work with. (Poor) Business management plays into this of course, but also the fact that Troika had on more than one occasion pointed the finger (either directly or indirectly via trained fanboys) at everybody else under the sun (usually thier publisher, which I'm certain must burn a few bridges) for the sorry state of their games. Even if it were true, and Troika could not be blamed for 1% of the problems their games faced, it surely can't be a wise business decision to blame the boss, can it?

the larger point being you can't just pick one thing that led to their demise
They're are dozen of factors that contributed it to it. I certainly wished Troika did alot of things differently, I certainly wish Sierra, Atari and Activision did ALOT of things differently. I also wish the target market for CRPG's wasn't brain dead fucking mouth breathers. the bottom line is their games did not sell well 'enough" to keep the company liquid. We all have opinions on "why their games didn't sell" none of those opinions are exclusive to "why Troika went out of business"

 

[HanoverF]

Damn that Kevin Spacey keeping the Glen Garry leads from the Troika boys

 

[Ultron]

Besides the games, I'm really gonna miss that "fat cam".

 

[Volourn]

"But they don't have to actually listen to Tim or Leonard or Jason--simply having them "on the team" lends a huge amount of legitmacy and is a stick that Beth can wave at angry FO fans."

Bull. Because it would eventually leak that theyw ere just 'figureheads' and Bethesda would just have 'nother headache. *uyanw*

P.S. It's Troika's fault they are out of business. Only MORONS would say otherwise. Period.

 

[dojoteef]

Because no US publisher wants to bank roll anything creative or cool they only want to bankroll the SLAM DUNK!!. This idea some of you fuck heads have that some suit at Atari, or Activision actually thinks "Hmm, these guys make buggy games, and I hear they don't have an office manager, Let's pass! is moronic. They simply call the bean counters and ask what the profit margin was on Troikas last game and go "Hmm, niche market" lets find a GTA clone or another asshole developing shitty Star Wars game # 25, that will sell!
Publishers in the US only want bankroll shit that sells to fucking morons. Figure this shit out already, You've got stupid balls trying to say "I told you so".

You ignore any facts that are contrary to your opinion and then claim that I'm acting like a moron. There are plenty of small development houses that have been given the opportunity to have creative license on the products they release. They did a good job, and despite their games being niche products, have gone on to make more games and become more well known. A SHINING example of this is Irrational Games. Are you going to claim that Freedom Force, was not as much of a niche product if not more than any of Troika's games?

The point is Troika was not managed in a way conducive to staying alive as a small to medium sized independent developer. There are plenty of postmortems of companies, some of which are now defunct like Troika, that show the exact same pattern of troubles that Troika had. For any business trying to stay alive and grow, those articles are gems. Instead of constantly repeating the mistakes of others, they could have used those as roadmaps of what not to do. That includes insights on how to deal with publishers when you are an independent developer struggling to stay alive. It's not as if the publishers have all of a sudden changed or that they treated Troika any differently than other developers. It has more to do with bad business sense than anything else. Obviously Troika did not learn from others' mistakes because they've made many of the same mistakes that I've seen in the postmortems I've read.

So when I say Troika put themselves in such a bad situation, I think it's a very defensible position. Just because you can't get your mind around such a notion doesn't make it any less true. So if anyone is acting like a dumbass it's you Sheriff05. Troika was after all a business which means they have other considerations besides making the game they want to make.

 

[Sheriff05]

You ignore any facts that are contrary to your opinion and then claim that I'm acting like a moron. There are plenty of small development houses that have been given the opportunity to have creative license on the products they release. They did a good job, and despite their games being niche products, have gone on to make more games and become more well known. A SHINING example of this is Irrational Games. Are you going to claim that Freedom Force, was not as much of a niche product if not more than any of Troika's games?

Irrational games are great, I love Freedom Force and hope they continue to make great games. But you're the one who is overlooking the FACTS in support of your opinion. I don't engage in "I told you so speculation" I just tell you how it is. Irrational games is an Austrailian Company whose expanded to have a US studio in Boston. IF you recall Looking Glass who published SS2 went down practically the same way and for many of the same reasons Troika has. So let me back up my argument with specifics; Irrational isn't even an American company, they Co-Published FF with EA and only have a distribution deal with VU. You know what that means Sherlock??, They can self-fund a good portion (most) of their operation.They are nowhere even close to the precarious operating postion Troika was. Got any other SHINING examples?

The point is Troika was not managed in a way conducive to staying alive as a small to medium sized independent developer.

No one is denying that, find me another US company with 30 employees living project to project and "making it" doing their own thing?

There are plenty of postmortems of companies, some of which are now defunct like Troika, that show the exact same pattern of troubles that Troika had. For any business trying to stay alive and grow, those articles are gems. Instead of constantly repeating the mistakes of others, they could have used those as roadmaps of what not to do. That includes insights on how to deal with publishers when you are an independent developer struggling to stay alive. It's not as if the publishers have all of a sudden changed or that they treated Troika any differently than other developers. It has more to do with bad business sense than anything else. Obviously Troika did not learn from others' mistakes because they've made many of the same mistakes that I've seen in the postmortems I've read.

So this is where you, asshole college boy thinks you have all the answers and if only you worked for Troika none this would happened under your leadership?
Go sell that shit on the corner kid, can you get anymore pretentious? get back to me after you get your first job.

So when I say Troika put themselves in such a bad situation, I think it's a very defensible position. Just because you can't get your mind around such a notion doesn't make it any less true.

Who disagrees with that? all I'm saying is there are wide variety or reasons, many of which were outside of Troika's direct control.Those other reasons definitely contributed and influenced their risky business postion. You're the shithead whose posted this -

Damn, I'm feeling like Exitium saying this, but "I TOLD YOU SO!" is all I can say. No where in that interview did it seem apparent Troika went down for any other reason than their own blunders.

Doesn't exactly show you're clued to the facts does it? You expect Leon to make excuses and point fingers? They'll take their lumps like men and move on. Only clueless fucks don't get what's going in this industry. You should take a lesson from Leon.

So if anyone is acting like a dumbass it's you Sheriff05. Troika was after all a business which means they have other considerations besides making the game they want to make.

Gee, really? That's how fucking Vampire even got made in the first place shit for brains
NEXT.

 

[dojoteef]

Sheriff, you are a bigger fucking fanboy than Vault Dweller. You spout bullshit at every corner and make excuses for every failing Troika has made. You claim impartiality by saying you only state the facts, but instead you type out rhetoric for that has no basis in fact. I give you a perfectly valid example of a small niche developer that's doing well for itself in the current market and you claim they are irrelevant because they are based out of Australia? What the fuck kind bullshit is that? Do you even know what your talking about? Let me give you a hint, NO! I guess you didn't take the time to realize Irrational dealt exclusively with American based publishers, Crave Entertainment and EA, huh? Irrational were under the exact same business constraints any fledgling indy developer has to deal with; those same forces that delivered Troika to it's current grave. Get your dick out of Troika's collective ass.

I'm done talking to a fucking moron such as yourself. Once you can get that Troika dick popsicle out of your mouth, then we might be able to talk. Until then your truculent posts are one less invective that I'm willing to suffer from yet another puerile sanctimonious fanboy.

 

[Sheriff05]

Snip.

Nice rant and dodge on the real issue. As far as Irrational goes, I am only saying they are irrevelant in terms of my argument, which is that nobody in the US can "make it" trying to operate as Troika did. Anyway, How the hell do you know that they are under the exact same "business constraints" as any fledgling developer? do you fucking work there? do you know how much there payroll is? how many employees they have?
What's their fucking rent? What, do they have a satellite office in your fucking dorm room? Yeah FF "was" a niche game that kicked ass, but considering the Superhero thing is doing as well as any genre right now and Swat 4 is as mainstream as it gets you think it's fair to compare that to Troika pitching their Sci-fi PA to US publishers? In reality Dojo you don't know shit, You're just another punk wannabe game designer with a Doom 3 mod who wants to shoot his mouth off about how guys that have been in this business for 15 years doing some great shit,"suddenly" don't know what the fuck they are doing.

Look I'm not making excuses for Troika's fuck ups, I am trying to comment on the shitty fucking state of the gaming industry an how anyone that wants to do anything cool or creative is froze out of the picture as far as the major market is concerned. That's what pushed Troika into grave just as much as any stupid shit they did or didn't do around the office. Are you actually trying to insult me calling me a fucking fanboy when it concerns guys I fucking respect when all I read around here is bullshit from Biowhores, Star Wars dorks and pretentious asswipes? If your looking for sanctimony start with 750+ posts you spammed us with over the last 4 months. Next time you decide to get "tough" maybe VD and I will give you a double smack down just for laughs

 

[Volourn]

"Look I'm not making excuses for Troika's fuck up"

Yes, you are.

Anyone who doesn't agree that it is 100% Troika's fault they are moronic fanboys. Period.

 

[EEVIAC]

Sheriff is right on one point - operating costs here in Australia are a lot cheaper than in NA. (Though Saint's been saying for ages that Troika should have moved to cheaper office space to save money.) The job market is also smaller, so there's more competition for jobs and experience. All things aren't equal and you can't do a fair comparison is what I'm saying.

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

I give you a perfectly valid example of a small niche developer that's doing well for itself in the current market and you claim they are irrelevant because they are based out of Australia?

This would be the same Irrational that made that niche Tribes game recently?

You know they self produced Freedom Force 2 because they couldn't find a publisher that would fund it, right? They're not that small and they have money.

 

[Sol Invictus]

If Troika moved to a cheaper location instead of working out of expensive California, they'd probably have more money right now and wouldn't be dead.