Gold Box Knights of the Chalice 2 classes shit all over Kingmaker's mess

[Darth Canoli]

After replaying Kingmaker and trying to make some good mercenaries, I noticed martial classes don't offer much interesting mechanism and after realizing this, I also realized casters were also way more interesting in KotC 2.

Martial classes
Fighter as the perfect killing machine, Kingmaker's one is good, KotC 2 as well with wade in and a lot of feats, maybe a slight advantage to kingmaker here. (At least with mods and weapons training feats)
KotC 2 revamped Barbarian is now better than Kingmaker's
KotC 2's Death Knight with his aura, smite, life drain and small speed boosts (+5feet feats)
KotC 2's Samurai, no armor speed penalties, swordstyle giving him a +X bonus, up to +8 I think at level 20, replacing the sword's enchantment.
KotC 2's Gladiator with his combined combat style giving bonus while wielding different weapon types

A clear win for KotC 2, better and more varied mechanisms.

Casters
KotC 2 has Bishops/Clerics with domain powers (celerity, spells boosts, some maximized, empowered, extended for free, some improved in many ways, special summons, special powers) while Kingmaker offer some variety for divine casters but nothing as groundbreaking.
Druids in KotC 2 have many interesting reserved spells Kingmaker lacks.
Psionicist in KotC 2 offer a whole new panel of great spells and power points (aka mana pool)
Warlocks mixing mage's spell slots and psionicist power points and spells.

I'm passing the more academic classes or most of the hybrids from KotC2.

Kingmaker offer many subclasses with slight variations but nothing really groundbreaking overall.
The alchemist is interesting but it's just a bomb machine with muy elements, powerful but really bland, mechanically-wise.
The kineticist is kind of weird, I never got into it, I just don't like it.
Many other classes, some quite interesting but I don't find anything as deep as Kotc 2 psionicits and all its feats or KotC2's Bishop with its 5 domains.

So, for those of you who played both, what do you think?

 

[Pink Eye]

Pathfinder has too much redundancy with constant overlaps between classes. You can cut half the classes out and you wouldn't notice them missing. On the other hand, Chalice 2 is a breath of fresh air. Each class has its own identity with interesting strengths that it brings to the party. It's more fun creating a party in Chalice ruleset then it is in Pathfinder.

 

[Nekot-The-Brave]

I don't think anyone here is a kingmaker fanboy, wrath of the righteous on the other hand...

 

[Comte_II]

Temple of Elemental Evil is better

 

[Pink Eye]

Temple of Elementam Evul is better

Nah.

 

[Torus]

The domain powers are really well done in KotC 2 yeah. Easily the hardest choices to make in that game. Also helps that the encounters are a lot more interesting than most RPGs so your choices feel impactful.

 

[Tacgnol]

Pathfinder has too much redundancy with constant overlaps between classes. You can cut half the classes out and you wouldn't notice them missing. On the other hand, Chalice 2 is a breath of fresh air. Each class has its own identity with interesting strengths that it brings to the party. It's more fun creating a party in Chalice ruleset then it is in Pathfinder.

A lot of those "redundant" classes have lots of tools designed around non-combat usage and often have very unique tools for dealing with interesting situations that come up on the tabletop.

They obviously don't lend themselves as well to CRPG situations where you are more limited in your actions.

 

[Pink Eye]

I can't say I agree. Every subclass has a spellcaster/martial/whatever variant that makes another class obsolete.

 

[Tacgnol]

I can't say I agree. Every subclass has a spellcaster/martial/whatever variant that makes another class obsolete.

Sure there are some overt ones like Bloodrager and Barbarian.

My example is more about classes like the Mesmerist. 50% of the classes arsenal is designed around casting spells covertly. How is that ever going to be usefully represented in an CRPG?

In the tabletop scenario it means you can literally use sleight of hand checks to cast spells and dominate NPCs in the middle of conversations.

You would probably define that class as "obsolete" as it isn't as powerful in raw terms as a full blown caster, even though in tabletop terms it has a lot of unique capabilities for RP situations.

 

[Pink Eye]

How is that ever going to be usefully represented in an CRPG?

You have certain skill checks that only specific classes can pass. This is what Chalice 2 employs. For example, Paladin's Oath of Honor can be used to bypass Spider Queen in prologue. Wizard's familiar can be used to scout ahead in order to avoid party from being surprised - flying familiars, such as raven, can also be used to distract an enemy; so party can have an initiative advantage, many such instances. Further there's also spells that Wizard can use during dialogue to complete quest in different way - an example is Wizard using stinky cloud on dwarves within prologue tavern in order to them go away. This is what adds to the flavor of the game. A different party setup can find often themselves in scenarios that you otherwise would have missed.

Essentially you'd implement loads of flavorful dialogues and interactions based on the skills that the party or main character has.

You would probably define that class as "obsolete" as it isn't as powerful in raw terms as a full blown caster, even though in tabletop terms it has a lot of unique capabilities for RP situations.

Allow me to expound on my earlier statement: it's obsolete precisely because it's not unique to that class, if it's a function that another class or subclass has access to then there's no identity there. Just a bunch of kits that make the other redundant in practice. You can argue this adds "flavor" for RPing, but I'd say that it just makes me feel stupid playing x when y does it better.

 

[Tacgnol]

And yet the "obsolete" class will create a memorable moment that everyone playing the campaign will remember in ten years time.

No one will remember the combat that was won one round earlier due to min/maxxing.

Anyways, that's my piece on it.

For the record, I think Pierre has created some really good classes in KOTC 2 and it's interesting to see someone with his own spin on 3e/3.5 classes rather than the usual constrained OGL stuff.

 

[0sacred]

There is no multiclass faggotry in KotC2.

Nuff said

 

[Pink Eye]

And yet the "obsolete" class will create a memorable moment that everyone playing the campaign will remember in ten years time.

No one will remember the combat that was won one round earlier due to min/maxxing.

The problem is that you're talking about this from a pen and paper perspective. I don't dispute in a pen and paper environment with an entertaining DM and group of fun players, this will be true. Having those special moments occur that only your class can facilitate is probably awesome. However, in a video game environment you lose this mystic when translating such classes to a single player game. Classes get reduced to their mechanics rather than their role playing potential. Thus it's completely fair to say x class feels bad compared to y class; thus why it does it exist.

 

[Darth Canoli]

A lot of those "redundant" classes have lots of tools designed around non-combat usage and often have very unique tools for dealing with interesting situations that come up on the tabletop.

They obviously don't lend themselves as well to CRPG situations where you are more limited in your actions.

It was supposed to be a computer game vs computer game classes comparison, if you bring the PnP possibilities, it turns into a whole new conversation.
But hey, we're not (all) facists here, so let's see what you've got.

Sure there are some overt ones like Bloodrager and Barbarian.

My example is more about classes like the Mesmerist. 50% of the classes arsenal is designed around casting spells covertly. How is that ever going to be usefully represented in an CRPG?

In the tabletop scenario it means you can literally use sleight of hand checks to cast spells and dominate NPCs in the middle of conversations.

You would probably define that class as "obsolete" as it isn't as powerful in raw terms as a full blown caster, even though in tabletop terms it has a lot of unique capabilities for RP situations.

Really interesting mechanism.
If Owrat had an ounce of common sense, they'd have implemented this instead of their garbage management.

Wizardry allow you to cast spells during conversations with NPC, some games like Prelude to Darkness offer many (and I mean many) ways to resolve each quest.
Add this to that you could get a really good cRPG with a more classic formula but a great quest design and some classes allowing for some non conventional quests resolutions, casting spells instead of skills checks being the simplest one.

It could have been a cRPG with some adventure elements (as in Quest for Glory).

All we got was a lot of subclasses with redundancies making the whole browsing class and sub-classes extremely tedious and not even rewarding in the end.

On the other hand, KotC 2 gets the most out of more focused classes, still a lot of them, and way more races and even some interesting mechanisms Pink Eye described.

 

[Pink Eye]

Nah.

It has better soundtrack!

Graphics are also nicer too, but Chalice 2 is mechanically the more entertaining game for me to play.

 

[Tacgnol]

Really interesting mechanism.
If Owrat had an ounce of common sense, they(d have implemented this instead of their garbage management.

It's an unfortunate limitation of the medium. I did like that Pierre gave some quite interesting options in dialogues/vignettes that are out of the ordinary.

More games should have mechanics around casting spells to resolve non combat encounters and situations, it's a trick a lot of RPGs seem to miss.

 

[Dorateen]

In Hearkenwold, there is a non-combat encounter that can be resolved by a cleric or bishop casting Bless to calm a distraught villager.

Spoiler

 

[Cryomancer]

Kingmaker has too much redundancy. I love kingmaker but classes in KoTC2 are better made IMO. I only din't liked that every caster is a spontaneous caster.

 

[Pink Eye]

I only din't liked that every caster is a spontaneous caster.

I think that's just a quality of life feature. I kind of like it. :shrug:

 

[Yosharian]

One of Owlcat's biggest failures with the Pathfinder games is their 1-to-1 copying of PF's classes without any balancing, alterations, etc. Pathfinder is a completely broken system. Though it is fun.

That said the few homebrew abilities/archetypes that they did implement are laughably overpowered so it's not clear they would do a good job if they tried to 'adapt' the system rather than just copy it

KOTC2's classes are very well designed IMO

 

[FriendlyMerchant]

KOTC2's druid summoning is also great, summoning as a move action after using a control spell is always nice.

 

[luj1]

loool

Kingmakers are NOWHERE NEAR KotC 2

please dont put them in the same sentence

in fact many other buildporn games such as ToEE or NWN 1 absolutely shit on Kingmakers

classes in Kingmakers are a good example how not to do it - bunch of characteristically weak classes that all feel samey

 

[rusty_shackleford]

"I'm going to make a class-based RPG then create 500 different classes in an attempt to emulate a classless RPG"

 

[santino27]

It was all decline once Owlcat put Pink Eye in their game. :D

 

[FriendlyMerchant]

It was all decline once Owlcat put Pink Eye in their game. :D

He was the only good thing in their game though.