KickStarter Kingdom Come: Deliverance Pre-Release Thread [RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]

[joeydohn]

Freespace, Tie Fighter, Falcon 3.0, Falcon 4, Il-2 Sturmovik, SEAL Team and many others beg otherwise.

Nigga please. With the exception of SEAL Team (really? you're comparing the maps from SEAL with the ones made for a CryEngine2012 game?) you are talking about games where you have both the horizontal and the vertical plane without any obstacles blocking your way, of course you can use a fast forward button there. The same can't be said about a game with modern level design set in some kind of medieval forest full of rocks, hills and rivers.

An autopilot for your character specifically would seem strange and player-specified long-distance routes would be murder for pathfinding I would guess, I'd say it would have to be for taxis that follow set paths and roads.

I also liked the idea of several smaller 3x3 instanced maps but it kinda misses the point of open-world game.

With it being like that it makes it so they can have sunny beach locations and icy mountains that aren't a ten minute walk away, now saying that I fully expect a place like that to exist on Earth.

 

[GarfunkeL]

SEAL Team had very large maps for its time and it's proof that you can make an "auto-pilot" with time compression even when you don't have vertical freedom of movement. It worked nicely there. Taking my approach would allow for realistically huge maps without need to compress locations down. As DraQ always says, using time compression allows games to remain realistic while being fun to play.

And why would pathfinding for player be that difficult? The AI controlled objects need pathfinding in any case.

 

[DraQ]

Sounds silly. I just can't imagine a good way to put a fast forward button and then watch everything go fast. Also, weaker rigs will suffer.

If you're not doing something like proper spasim* where exact physics matters you don't need everything going fast. You merely need to know where in the world player and anything close enough to be relevant is at any given moment and to avoid having this "where" be a middle of a cliff face or sea.

You don't actually need to display stuff**, you can be showing a Fallout-esque travel map, or a travelling montage rendered independently in separate thread and comprised of short sequences plucked out of entire travel, etc.
What you need is also some method of detecting potential travel problems, for example you can have perception or outdoorsman check determining if you see potential hostiles in advance and either dropping you out of compression in advance - in safe distance, undetected and with a warning or in the middle of an ambush (that's why you need coords of player and relevant entities).

Additionally, you can usually use some coarse means of simplifying travel pathfinding - most worlds have roads, most worlds also have stretches of clearly impassable terrain that need not be considered when searching for possible paths.

Finally, when making a huge open world game with semblance of life you will need fast, reasonably simple, long distance pathfinding algorithm anyway for your NPCs, so why not allow player to use it as well?


*) and if you are, you're dealing with time and space scale where you don't need superb precision, just math coming out right in the end.

**) indeed, it would actually be better not to - accelerating vehicles in a simulation is one thing, making your epic fantasy heroes move in slapstick manner is another.

 

[aris]

So what is known about the game so far? I'm too lazy to read through all the "THIS GAME WILL SUCK" posts.

 

[evdk]

The setting's based on Karel Čapek's fairy tales.

 

[aris]

Looks like it's shaping up to be a pretty depressing game then. But in all seriousness, from the wiki page, I did not gain much information about the particulars of his fairy tales. Care to fill me in a little bit?

 

[Sul]

SEAL Team had very large maps for its time and it's proof that you can make an "auto-pilot" with time compression even when you don't have vertical freedom of movement. It worked nicely there. Taking my approach would allow for realistically huge maps without need to compress locations down. As DraQ always says, using time compression allows games to remain realistic while being fun to play.

And why would pathfinding for player be that difficult? The AI controlled objects need pathfinding in any case.

You know that you're comparing this with something like this, right?

Sounds silly. I just can't imagine a good way to put a fast forward button and then watch everything go fast. Also, weaker rigs will suffer.

If you're not doing something like proper spasim where exact physics matters you don't need everything going fast. You merely need to know where in the world player and anything close enough to be relevant is at any given moment and to avoid having this "where" be a middle of a cliff face or sea.

You don't actually need to display stuff, you can be showing a Fallout-esque travel map, or a travelling montage rendered independently in separate thread and comprised of short sequences plucked out of entire travel, etc.
What you need is also some method of detecting potential travel problems, for example you can have perception or outdoorsman check determining if you see potential hostiles in advance and either dropping you out of compression in advance - in safe distance, undetected and with a warning or in the middle of an ambush (that's why you need coords of player and relevant entities).

Additionally, you can usually use some coarse means of simplifying travel pathfinding - most worlds have roads, most worlds also have stretches of clearly impassable terrain that need not be considered when searching for possible paths.

Finally, when making a huge open world game with semblance of life you will need fast, reasonably simple, long distance pathfinding algorithm anyway for your NPCs, so why not allow player to use it as well?

So you're saying that you can have a fast forward button and at the same time not show the player traveling around while using it? Then how this differ from the fast travel of Morrowind (Silt Striders), Skyrim (carriage) or the one I just described? Actually it's not worse since you can use it anywhere?
The Fallout/Arcanum model is good but then it's for a different kind of game where all the action is concentrated in isolated hubs. If the devs decide to adopt it'll have to be very early on development because otherwise it'll be a waste of time to develop all that detailed landscape.
The fast forward mode that you described where the player uses the roads or rivers (if we have boats) is also a good idea, but as I said before, weaker rigs suffer if any large amount of detailed content is shown in a small space of time.

 

[GarfunkeL]

You know that you're comparing this with something like this, right?

Don't get hung-up on graphics, mate. Both had big maps with multiple NPCs moving around. Both have stealth integrated in to their mechanics. The difference in GFX doesn't matter as PCs have also grown quite a bit in power since then.

Then how this differ from the fast travel of Morrowind (Silt Striders), Skyrim (carriage) or the one I just described? Actually it's not worse since you can use it anywhere?

Those are instant (fucks up in-game time) and entirely safe.

The Fallout/Arcanum model is good but then it's for a different kind of game where all the action is concentrated in isolated hubs.

Both of those games loaded a suitable random map for encounters outside hubs. Warhorse RPG doesn't need to do that, since they already have satellite imagery from where to create their maps.

And why worry about weaker rigs? It's already entire possible to only render a small bubble around the player in detail. NPC/AI-wise, no game has them running all the time either, AFAIK. They are either spawned as necessary (GTA) or active only when player is nearby (Skyrim).

 

[mikaelis]

The setting's based on Karel Čapek's fairy tales.

Where did you get it from? Was it mentioned in one of the posts on their blog? So far, I had an impression it will be ARPG in realistic XV century medieval Czechia (so likely Hussites Wars which would be awesome). There is a fragment of painting (is it Matejko Battle of Grunwald/Tannenberg?) which suggest that among other things.

 

[Sul]

You know that you're comparing this with something like this, right?

Don't get hung-up on graphics, mate. Both had big maps with multiple NPCs moving around. Both have stealth integrated in to their mechanics. The difference in GFX doesn't matter as PCs have also grown quite a bit in power since then.

I'm not talking about graphics but level design. You can't compare a map from SEAL, which is almost empty when it comes to geographical obstacles like trees and rocks and different ground levels, with a map from Skyrim, where you need to constantly pay attention to the environment so you can find your way through the forersts of Falkreath and Rift or the rocky terrain of the Reach and Eastmarch.

Then how this differ from the fast travel of Morrowind (Silt Striders), Skyrim (carriage) or the one I just described? Actually it's not worse since you can use it anywhere?

Those are instant (fucks up in-game time) and entirely safe.

The Fallout/Arcanum model is good but then it's for a different kind of game where all the action is concentrated in isolated hubs.

Both of those games loaded a suitable random map for encounters outside hubs. Warhorse RPG doesn't need to do that, since they already have satellite imagery from where to create their maps.

And why worry about weaker rigs? It's already entire possible to only render a small bubble around the player in detail. NPC/AI-wise, no game has them running all the time either, AFAIK. They are either spawned as necessary (GTA) or active only when player is nearby (Skyrim).

Yes, Silt Striders and carriages are intant but they count the time that the player would take to make the same travel. So you, for exemple, can't go from Sentinel to Daggerfall in less than a day (so goes any kind of fast travel in TES).
Random encounters can get rather annoying in this kind of fast travel but you can add another kind of penalty that would make fast travel risky like low stamina at arrival, hunger or different kinds of debuffs.

Then why bother making all that detailed landscape? Most gamers always chose the more pratical route (except when bored), this is a fact, they would only get out of the world map just to access hubs like villages or other points of interest like a dungeon or a camp that some NPC mentioned and marked on their map. Only a very small minority would take time to travel all those long distances outside the world map hoping to find something interesting.

Why worry about weaker rig? Right...
A fast forward button is completely unviable, not only weaker but mid-end rigs would shit in their pants with so much data passing through their screens and so little time to process it all. The only two viable methods I see for a big non-intanced game world is the Fallout one (but then as I said is not made for a TES-like open-world game) or something like Morrowind where the player would pay for services like boats or carriages to be teleported to the destined location (counting the time that it would take to travel without fast travel of course).

There is a fragment of painting (is it Matejko Battle of Grunwald/Tannenberg?)

Yep.

 

[Father Walker]

I hope they make good use of those soft body physics

 

[GarfunkeL]

You can't compare a map from SEAL, which is almost empty when it comes to geographical obstacles like trees and rocks and different ground levels, with a map from Skyrim, where you need to constantly pay attention to the environment so you can find your way through the forersts of Falkreath and Rift or the rocky terrain of the Reach and Eastmarch.

Which is why I suggested using auto-pilot of sorts when utilizing time compression. That takes care of the terrain problems. If it's still a problem, force the player to stick to roads while using that mode.

A fast forward button is completely unviable, not only weaker but mid-end rigs would shit in their pants with so much data passing through their screens and so little time to process it all.

Nonsense. You don't need to process all that data. Under AI control, there's no need to display the GFX in the usual detail or even in any detail at all. As soon as the bubble around the player reaches an NPC of some kind, switch time compression and auto pilot off and vóila.

Then why bother making all that detailed landscape?

To give actual realistic sense of distance and time between places which will also help with food/drink stuff, stamina/resting and so on. It doesn't have to be that detailed in the first place - the Oblivion/Skyrim compressed map is entirely ludicrous. More realism and more complexity in our hiking simulators, please. We've already suffering horribly from the consolitis and you argue for more of the same under the pretence that it can't be done.

 

[Sul]

You can't compare a map from SEAL, which is almost empty when it comes to geographical obstacles like trees and rocks and different ground levels, with a map from Skyrim, where you need to constantly pay attention to the environment so you can find your way through the forersts of Falkreath and Rift or the rocky terrain of the Reach and Eastmarch.

Which is why I suggested using auto-pilot of sorts when utilizing time compression. That takes care of the terrain problems. If it's still a problem, force the player to stick to roads while using that mode.

A fast forward button is completely unviable, not only weaker but mid-end rigs would shit in their pants with so much data passing through their screens and so little time to process it all.

Nonsense. You don't need to process all that data. Under AI control, there's no need to display the GFX in the usual detail or even in any detail at all. As soon as the bubble around the player reaches an NPC of some kind, switch time compression and auto pilot off and vóila.

So you're saying that taking control from the player, reducing his field of view to 10m ahead and making everything else a blurry mess while he waits for the AI to find a way through a terrain that he would simply jump his way through (like Skyrim mountains or anywhere that NPCs begin to behave like a buch of fags that can't jump from a cliff because of a 2m fall or climb a 30cm rock or anything with a inclination angle bigger than 45º) is preferable than keeping things simple by implementing a simply fast travel system with a series of restrictions?

To give actual realistic sense of distance and time between places which will also help with food/drink stuff, stamina/resting and so on. It doesn't have to be that detailed in the first place - the Oblivion/Skyrim compressed map is entirely ludicrous. More realism and more complexity in our hiking simulators, please. We've already suffering horribly from the consolitis and you argue for more of the same under the pretence that it can't be done.

Referring to the Fallout/Arcanum travel system... So it's only for the sake o eyecandy? I say that because most of the map will go to waste anyway. You have to understand that most players are not larpers that will run through a virtual forest without much reason besides collect resources for 2h when he can simply open the world map and click on the nearest settlement.

 

[GarfunkeL]

Most players are more than happy slurping up the next-gen shit, so that argument is completely pointless. If Warhorse was going to make a game aimed purely at "most players", they wouldn't bother to post here and their head honcho wouldn't have a blog where he's moaning about the current state of gaming industry AND their game would be multi-platform.

is preferable than keeping things simple

What you described would be the absolutely worst-case scenario, in case Warhorse couldn't tackle the pathfinding issues - which I doubt. Especially since you seem to use Skyrim as some sort of measurement stick that nothing can surpass, even though it's been obvious since release that Skyrim is nothing special or spectacular. Surpassing the shitty AI-programmers at Bethesda should be entirely possible.

 

[Sul]

Most players are more than happy slurping up the next-gen shit, so that argument is completely pointless. If Warhorse was going to make a game aimed purely at "most players", they wouldn't bother to post here and their head honcho wouldn't have a blog where he's moaning about the current state of gaming industry AND their game would be multi-platform.

is preferable than keeping things simple

What you described would be the absolutely worst-case scenario, in case Warhorse couldn't tackle the pathfinding issues - which I doubt. Especially since you seem to use Skyrim as some sort of measurement stick that nothing can surpass, even though it's been obvious since release that Skyrim is nothing special or spectacular. Surpassing the shitty AI-programmers at Bethesda should be entirely possible.

Don't hold illusions, this is not a Kickstarter project, they need to sell this game to a number X of people that goes beyond a small niche of larpers. I'm not saying it need to be a Call of Hussite: Late-Medieval Warfare, it just need to be a fun game that doesn't insult the player's intelligence (Daemon/Dark Souls is a good exemple).

Oh they can make the best AI ever, sure, I don't doubt that, but don't forget that this is not a tech demo. They have a certain number of priorities, you know, otherwise we will have an Obsidian-like game (extremely good in one aspect with the rest of the game barely holding itself together). Also, Skyrim is the best thing we have when it comes to a modern exemple of open world non-instanced RPGs, so it's a valid comparison.

 

[DraQ]

So you're saying that you can have a fast forward button and at the same time not show the player traveling around while using it? Then how this differ from the fast travel of Morrowind (Silt Striders), Skyrim (carriage) or the one I just described? Actually it's not worse since you can use it anywhere?

No and no. First, if you want a genuinely large world (tens of square km is NOT genuinely large), then walking everywhere in real time is simply not feasible.

Second, the difference is that your travel can be interrupted (by yourself or the game), you always have a defined and sensible position within the world and relevant objects and entities are also tracked (for example hired thugs following your steps). The game can even simulate camping en-route to your destination and attack you in your sleep if it determines that hostiles attack you when you broke a camp (we assume that player/party needs to sleep and consume supplies).

I'd imagine such travel as being something between Fallout (presentation and random encounters) and Daggerfall (options) travel map, and HoMM3 world movement (pathfinding).
You'd click on a spot on the map and the game would draw an optimal path to destination it found, with your camping spots marked with dots, plus estimated time and estimated supply consumption.

You'd also be able to change settings (as in Daggerfall) and set up your own route with waypoints.

Then you'd confirm or cancel.

Random encounters would vary depending on circumstances and could depend on stats as well, for example high perception would allow you to drop out of travel mode in advance and undetected when you spot an ambush. Otherwise you'd pop in the middle of the ambush without your weapon out and with attackers either attacking you already or aiming at you and making demands.

The Fallout/Arcanum model is good but then it's for a different kind of game where all the action is concentrated in isolated hubs. If the devs decide to adopt it'll have to be very early on development because otherwise it'll be a waste of time to develop all that detailed landscape.
The fast forward mode that you described where the player uses the roads or rivers (if we have boats) is also a good idea, but as I said before, weaker rigs suffer if any large amount of detailed content is shown in a small space of time.

That's why you don't need to show it - you merely need to know what is happening, without full details - you don't need to know locations of all the trees or bushes or similar minor obstacles. You also don't need to craft the entire worldspace by hand if it's actually large.

 

[Burning Bridges]

1) a compressed potato landscape where everything is close by?

no

2) a realistic landscape in which you can wander for hours even if it is relatively empty?

Could theoretically work.
But it's not necessary if it can be done better with some tricks.

3) a smaller map that looks realistic but is reasonably compressed?

Too broad. In theory this could mean everything between 1) and 2)
I don't really mind if Prague is only 5 km from Tabor or Karlsbad, but not 250m please.
In any case 3) still 100x times better than 1)

 

[Burning Bridges]

I think where almost all RPGs have failed is giving a sense of travelling. I mean really long journeys through dangerous areas, that you can look forward to as the player. Where you have the task of crossing e.g. a mountain region that no one has passed, or go through an uncharted forest, or finding the way out of a deep dungeon.

Of course this is a bit harder in the period / area that was chosen for this game. Because at first there are no unsurmountable mountains, no deserts etc. In flat country there are probably only rogue bands and some animals that make certain areas insecure.

But I think some other areas could still be remote and populated by strange people / creatures. If the Krkonoše or the Tatra still poulated by giants and man eating pagans, it would make for interesting travelling.
But it only works if there are moments of real loneliness and being lost. If you make it too easy on the player it does not feel like a journey, more like commuting through a civilized town.

In this respect it is of course a big advantage if you have actually spent time in a middle European forest, and know what a majestic wilderness it can be, and can imagine that in 1000AD it would be 10,000 times larger and still populated by bears and man eating savages ..

All of Ultima Underworld was in fact a travelling story, the aim of the game was just getting out of a dungeon.

Ultima 7 also had a bit of that, it had me constantly preparing / packing for the next journey. Arcanum, though it didn't give me the sense of travelling. In Morrowind it was nice how the landscaoe was changing. But it was ruined by how easy it was to take a transport. Since you pass the siltstriders everywhere it feels like walking from one bus stop to the next. So while eventually such a game will surely have fast transport, it must not be in your face like in Morrowind, where it was like a public bus system.

There are also moments like finding a cave or a shipwreck, that make travelling in games unforgettable.

I really hope you succeed with this, because I always wanted such a game.

 

[MetalCraze]

If Warhorse was going to make a game aimed purely at "most players", they wouldn't bother to post here

True. Codex is the subcultural minority, playing nothing but underground games like Skyrim, Deus Ex HR, Mass Effect, Dragon Age, Binary Domain, Assassin's Creed, Fallout 3, Diablo, Counter-Strike, Battlefield 3, The Witcher, Final Fantasy among many other games for niche audiences like these.

We are not some shitty mainstream that plays everything else but shooters and hack'n'slash, we actually have taste.

 

[Gord]

In Morrowind it was nice how the landscaoe was changing. But it was ruined by how easy it was to take a transport. Since you pass the siltstriders everywhere it feels like walking from one bus stop to the next. So while eventually such a game will surely have fast transport, it must not be in your face like in Morrowind, where it was like a public bus system.
There are also moments like finding a cave or a shipwreck, that make travelling in games unforgettable.

I really hope you succeed with this, because I always wanted such a game.

Traveling is fine as long as it provides a novelty. In Morrowind it quickly degraded to tedium.
Why would I want to travel from Balmora to Sadrith Mora on foot when you get outrun by snails and already know the area - and every other quest takes you across entire Vardenfell. I can definitely appreciate the addition of a fast-travel system in games like this, although you may be right that it doesn't need to be a bus-stop-like system.

 

[Roguey]

AND their game would be multi-platform.

http://www.linkedin.com/company/warhorse-studios

Warhorse Studios is video game development company created by a group of industry veterans. Our track records includes games like Mafia, Mafia 2 and Operation Flashpoint. In Warhorse, we are going to be developing AAA multi-platform titles in the best tradition of our previous titles.

 

[Suchy]

Huge and realistic map in an RPG was never really achieved, they were always extremely compressed with cities 100m one from another... That's one of reasons I'd love to see something like this finally implemented. I never really felt like travelling (the closest could have been Betrayal at Krondor - but still the party moved with speed of a car).
Of course some compression would be necessary, imo the perfect level is what we can see in OFP/Arma games. They defilnitely feel huge and travel on foot from one town to another takes quite some time, but it doesn't really get boring. Of course running back and forth the same route to do a fedex quest would get extremely tedious very fast, so avoid backtracking like the mudcrabs.
Another thing - make something happen on route, and I don't mean just filler combat. Let the player meet a traveller with interesting stories to tell, get into a drinking quarrel in a roadside tavern, solve a minor quest in a small village when passing by, that kind of stuff. Bethesda tried to do this in Skyrim, but they failed miserably due to crappy writing and complete lack of memorable/interesing characters.
Fast travel should be the last resort, it could be a paid service to be used only in cases of unavoidable backtracking. Definitely no click-on-the-map teleport. Let's say the player hires a carriage. It can only travel on roads, so no cutting through forests/mountains. This way it's easy to generate some random events on-route, in a realistic manner (logical places). Think of how travel looked like in Star Trail: map overview, moving only on roads, a ton of random events.

 

[MetalCraze]

Well if you add horses to OFP/ArmA sized map you instantly make the traveling time much shorter - but still giving you a sense of scale. Unlike Beth games where a horse ride from one town to another takes a few minutes.

I wouldn't be surprised if it was possible to cross Skyrim in less than 10 minutes from one edge of the map to the opposite.

 

[Burning Bridges]

In Morrowind it was nice how the landscaoe was changing. But it was ruined by how easy it was to take a transport. Since you pass the siltstriders everywhere it feels like walking from one bus stop to the next. So while eventually such a game will surely have fast transport, it must not be in your face like in Morrowind, where it was like a public bus system.
There are also moments like finding a cave or a shipwreck, that make travelling in games unforgettable.

I really hope you succeed with this, because I always wanted such a game.

Traveling is fine as long as it provides a novelty. In Morrowind it quickly degraded to tedium.
Why would I want to travel from Balmora to Sadrith Mora on foot when you get outrun by snails and already know the area - and every other quest takes you across entire Vardenfell. I can definitely appreciate the addition of a fast-travel system in games like this, although you may be right that it doesn't need to be a bus-stop-like system.

There is no contradiction. It's suicide having an open world game without some means of fast travel, but they should not create the impression of using a public bus system.

I talked about how I would like to see situations where you really feel lost, and desolate. This is of course at odds with a convenient travel system that is available anywhere. Ship lanes and in civilized areas, horse transport on roads, are a logical thing, and discovering them in some unexpected places can even make the game more interesting. But siltstriders and teleportation stones all over the country are not, and they are a lame idea anyway. As long as fast travel is expensive, and you miss out on some opportunites, they are ok.

I also gave an example how travelling can become part of the gameplay (Ultima Underworld). And it would be interesting to see how such a travelling game would work overland, where you basically travel from one end of the world to another, perhaps also a bit in the opposite direction, but not constantly back an forth. The world could be constructed like some sort of graph, with logical crossing points.

I think a lot of arguments are always based one the assumption that travelling in games must be boring. While travelling is by nature always a bit boring in real life, it's also very rewarding. Try it out in rl, it's impossible to have the rewarding feeling of discovering something really cool without some tedium and frustration. Of course there's a fine balance in computer games.

I think Daniel and his team is trying to bring the two extremes together. Which is not easy but the fact that it has been done in OFP and Arma is a clear indication that it is entirely possible.

 

[Burning Bridges]

Well if you add horses to OFP/ArmA sized map you instantly make the traveling time much shorter - but still giving you a sense of scale. Unlike Beth games where a horse ride from one town to another takes a few minutes.

I wouldn't be surprised if it was possible to cross Skyrim in less than 10 minutes from one edge of the map to the opposite.

I would advocate fast travel, as long as it is restricted to roads and roads are only available in civilized areas, it would entirely make sense.

In fact I think it's much more important to have a clever distribution of civilized and uncivilized areas. I also think if some of the uncivilized areas are also practically unknown and uncharted, it could become really cool to go there.

To achieve that, it would be important to only have a small number of civilized zones and towns, because this leaves more space for unknown areas. If you overpopulate the area, there remains nothing in between. Civilized areas could of course all be connected by roads, where nothing really happens and you should be allowed to fast travel as much as you want, to shorten the really long distances. But if you can fast travel in remote areas it ruins the experience.

In Morrowind you didn't have really remote areas anyway, because the map was scaled too heavily. It may have been impressive in 2001, but not by todays standards.