[King of Dragon Pass] This game actively punishes you for being successful.

[JohnSmith24601]

The mandatory clan split event is extremely artificial. At first glance, the game seems to allow you to become the King of Dragon Pass by either choosing the war path (conquering all the tribes) or choosing the peace path (uniting all the tribes via diplomacy), but that's not the case at all. The path to winning the game is actually very, very restricted, and if you try to deviate from that, you are severely punished. I would seriously give this game a four out of ten because there's actually not a whole lot of player agency involved once you are familiar with the game. Seems extremely overrated, judging by the review as well.

 

[Krivol]

Yeah, 1/10, overrated...

 

[JohnSmith24601]

It's got awesome reviews on Steam though...

 

[octavius]

I only played a bit of what I thought was a Strategy game, until I realized it was a CYOA.

 

[mondblut]

The mandatory clan split event is extremely artificial. At first glance, the game seems to allow you to become the King of Dragon Pass by either choosing the war path (conquering all the tribes) or choosing the peace path (uniting all the tribes via diplomacy), but that's not the case at all. The path to winning the game is actually very, very restricted, and if you try to deviate from that, you are severely punished. I would seriously give this game a four out of ten because there's actually not a whole lot of player agency involved once you are familiar with the game. Seems extremely overrated, judging by the review as well.

It's a CYOA masquerading as a strategy game, what did you expect?

 

[Miner Arobar]

It's a CYOA with elements of a strategy game as well as RPGs (in that you control a "party" (your Clan ring) with stats that may change by your actions and with which you can resolve situations in various ways). But it's a very good CYOA because of the coherence of the world and mythology that is presented to you. It has a narrow path to victory (as do many other games) but even getting to that point is an achievement on the harder level (you're usually two bad choices away from your clan being destroyed). So I'm not sure what the problem is.

 

[Bibbimbop]

What's wrong with CYOAs?

I like Age of Decadence.

 

[laclongquan]

The mandatory clan split event is extremely artificial. At first glance, the game seems to allow you to become the King of Dragon Pass by either choosing the war path (conquering all the tribes) or choosing the peace path (uniting all the tribes via diplomacy), but that's not the case at all. The path to winning the game is actually very, very restricted, and if you try to deviate from that, you are severely punished. I would seriously give this game a four out of ten because there's actually not a whole lot of player agency involved once you are familiar with the game. Seems extremely overrated, judging by the review as well.

It's not mandatory. you can choose not to split it.

On the one hand, the devs designed it that way. I did complain to them back in the days, in a yahoo group or google group I dont remember. They very importantly tell me that's how they designed it and I damn well better follow it (paraphrased, they were quite polite).

On the other hand you dont have to follow that damned design. Just ignore the reminder and keep your tribe whole. Sure, later on you will increasingly get hit with plague and sick event, but you can set up temple and goddess to counter that. Biggest Tribe is an interesting way because you are going to play very different from other ways.

 

[mondblut]

On the one hand, the devs designed it that way. I did complain to them back in the days, in a yahoo group or google group I dont remember. They very importantly tell me that's how they designed it and I damn well better follow it (paraphrased, they were quite polite).

Fucking storyfags. "Nooo, it's muh tale, stop ruining it, do what WE tell you to do!111"

If I wanted to be a tool in someone else's story, I'd work as an actor, made millions and banged all the hot bitches. If I had traded that for sitting behind MY computer playing MY games, their stories are gonna be MINE ALONE.

 

[laclongquan]

According to how that conversation went, they were the very standard of storyfaggotry.

I mean, an easy counter to my complaint would be that "curse of big medieval city, bitch," or "medieval london, bitch" or "black death, bitch" or "big people come with big dead number" etc... A lot easy counters, really.

But no. We designed it that way and you damn well going to follow it.

 

[JohnSmith24601]

On the other hand you dont have to follow that damned design. Just ignore the reminder and keep your tribe whole.

You can only ignore the clan demand for so long. Eventually all the options grey out, and you are forced to split. Make no mistake, it's 100% mandatory.

 

[JohnSmith24601]

What's wrong with CYOAs?

I like Age of Decadence.

Don't even compare Age of Decadence to this crap. Age of decadence is also a totally different kind of game, not sure why that even popped into your mind. Wtf?

 

[JohnSmith24601]

According to how that conversation went, they were the very standard of storyfaggotry.

I mean, an easy counter to my complaint would be that "curse of big medieval city, bitch," or "medieval london, bitch" or "black death, bitch" or "big people come with big dead number" etc... A lot easy counters, really.

But no. We designed it that way and you damn well going to follow it.

That seems pretty authoritarian and runs counter to the fundamental principle of "choosing your own adventure".

 

[AdamReith]

What is the path to victory? Does it involve duck people?

 

[mondblut]

Eventually all the options grey out, and you are forced to split. Make no mistake, it's 100% mandatory.

Fuuuuck. Good thing I have never reached that point, which kept the game at my good side despite all of its shortcomings. If I did know that, that's instant Damnatio memoriae material.

 

[JohnSmith24601]

What is the path to victory?

Complete two hero quests, form a tribe, win a scripted war.

Does it involve duck people?

No, but it does involve not fucking over the duck people.

 

[MRY]

King of Dragon Pass is not really a CYOA. I'm not sure what it is, but the text vignettes are only part of a large game, and even the vignettes have aspects that to me make them unusual as CYOAs (for instance, the randomness of the outcomes).

I do share the misgiving that there is a disconnect between the player's reasonable goals, the player's reasonable choices, and the resulting outcomes. It is true that some of the game's genius resides in the fact that you cannot just powergame your way through it. But I've still found aspects somewhat frustrating every time I've played.

[EDIT: To clarify, though, I think it's both a really good game (for many reasons) and a unique game that, even if it were not very good, ought to be played for that reason alone. And it was one of several inspirations for Fallen Gods, so I'm beholden to it for that reason, too!]

 

[Malakal]

Can't you just shuffle the clan ring endlessly? I did that in the old KODP.

 

[laclongquan]

On the other hand you dont have to follow that damned design. Just ignore the reminder and keep your tribe whole.

You can only ignore the clan demand for so long. Eventually all the options grey out, and you are forced to split. Make no mistake, it's 100% mandatory.

That is strange. I remember I advance to ending in that run.

Mind you, that's the old KODP game, not the new one recently (which I didnt touch).

Maybe you can reload to before that time and shuffle the ring a bit?

 

[Nutria]

The genius of it is the same as Darklands: It's mostly built out of random encounters, but you have to actually use your brain in every one of those random encounters to evaluate your strength, the strength of your enemies, how much you're willing to risk on this battle, etc. And there's always some element of uncertainty to it. I guess it's not for the crowd who wants to know exactly how much their +3 ice sword of fairy elf damage will do every round.

There's not really any CYOA except listening carefully when people tell you not to do something really stupid. Kind of like how real life works.

 

[Norfleet]

The mandatory clan split event is extremely artificial.

It didn't seem that artificial to me: There are only so many people that can be adequately controlled under a primitive tribal government. If you let them go, you only lose a little bit of stuff, which can be mitigated if you invested most of your wealth into infrastructure, since they can 't take that with them when they leave.

Just remember: People are like rungs on the ladder to success: Don't hesitate to step on them! Always pick options in warfare which will achieve more results, regardless of the casualties it may cause. After all, some of you may die, but that's a sacrifice I'm willing to make. Doing this will also slow down population explosion.

I do share the misgiving that there is a disconnect between the player's reasonable goals, the player's reasonable choices, and the resulting outcomes. It is true that some of the game's genius resides in the fact that you cannot just powergame your way through it. But I've still found aspects somewhat frustrating every time I've played.

The thing to understand is that reality is counterintuitive, often like this game. If reasonable people doing reasonable things always obtained reasonable outcomes, the world wouldn't be the way it is. Rather, the world is a system in which the reasonable action towards a reasonable goal tends to create a pushback that thwarts progress to the point where it is often counterproductive. Often, achieving a goal involves doing exactly the opposite, causing this backlash to work in the direction you want.

It's like how in Vicky, you want to pass beneficial reforms that will improve your nation, but if people are happy with how things are, they don't really care for reform, so you make your nation better, you have to intentionally trash the place and piss them off.

 

[Silva]

Clan split is not mandatory.
You can play pacifist.
You can slave ducks.

OP , have you really played the game? You're talking so much shit that it seems like you just tried 1 playthrough, failed miserably and came here whining.

 

[Silva]

The genius of it is the same as Darklands: It's mostly built out of random encounters, but you have to actually use your brain in every one of those random encounters to evaluate your strength, the strength of your enemies, how much you're willing to risk on this battle, etc. And there's always some element of uncertainty to it. I guess it's not for the crowd who wants to know exactly how much their +3 ice sword of fairy elf damage will do every round.

There's not really any CYOA except listening carefully when people tell you not to do something really stupid. Kind of like how real life works.

This.

The game is pretty unique in that it simulates the life of a bronze era (-like) people and forces the player to enter the mindset to win, which includes grasping their tranditions and supertitions. Most people I know that don't "get" it, is really approaching it like your math based 4X strategy or applying modern sensibilities to its decisions.

 

[JohnSmith24601]

Clan split is not mandatory.
You can play pacifist.
You can slave ducks.

OP , have you really played the game? You're talking so much shit that it seems like you just tried 1 playthrough, failed miserably and came here whining.

If you keep attacking the ducks, the beastmen will come and seriously fuck you up. There's no way to win in that battle, either. You just get a pop-up telling you that like 90% of your people are now dead due to your retarded decision, so do you want to start over? Judging by your comments, I can tell that you are the one who hasn't played the game for long, at least long enough to find out that clan split is mandatory, as every option eventually gets locked out.

 

[Norfleet]

Clan split is not mandatory.
You can play pacifist.
You can slave ducks.

It's not quite "mandatory", but you will eventually run out of options if you don't address the core underlying issue, that of having too many people for a primitive tribal government to manage.

The solution is, of course, constant bloodthirsty warfare. Having a bunch of people die ought to kick this can down the road for a bit, while having the benefit of smiting your enemies.

Alternatively, just let it happen. If you invested most of your wealth into infrastructure, they can't take it with them when they leave, and you can probably afford to give them a warm send-off and gain a friendly ally out of the deal. It really isn't that bad. Or even bad at all, really.

I would not say you can play "pacifist", but you can certainly play peaceful. You will, however, have to defend yourself, the world isn't a peaceful place. Even Gandhi knows that words must be backed with NUCLEAR WEAPONS!