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Is it true that CDPR underwent a major organizational shift during and following The Witcher 3?

Robotigan

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I never played the first two Witcher games, but I've always sort of held a bit of an unhealthy grudge against CDPR ever since I got talked into playing The Witcher 3 and felt it was a thoroughly mediocre game propped up by production values. I had always directed my frustrations at the studio as a whole, but this post seems to imply much of the experienced talent at the studio disagreed with TW3's design direction and that it was mostly Badowski's heavy handed leadership driving the ship. Can anyone who knows a good deal about CDPR and their first two Witcher games weigh in?

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I'm looking for real adult-ish answers here so please resist the urge to go on some incel rant about trannies or whatever.
 

Robotigan

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Just to be clear, this is just a random post from 4chan without verification. I don't actually know if there's any credibility to its claims.
 

Zed Duke of Banville

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Just to be clear, this is just a random post from 4chan without verification. I don't actually know if there's any credibility to its claims.
The Witcher 2 had already departed from the formula of the original Witcher game. Rather than attempt to refine and improve what had been a promising first RPG from a new developer, CDPR decided to emulate Bioware's cinematic narrative focus, on the assumption they would be able to capture similar sales as Bioware enjoyed. Although The Witcher 2 did quite well commercially after its release in May 2011, it was swiftly overshadowed in sales by the behemoth of Skyrim, which released in November. CDPR therefore emulated Skyrim, or more broadly the Open World Elder Scrolls games (possibly also Fallout 3 and/or Fallout: New Vegas), for The Witcher 3, though retaining a focus on narrative cutscenes with its predefined character Geralt and with much less dungeon-crawling. The Witcher 3 sold far better than its predecessor, and CDPR then turned to seeking inspiration for a game in a Cyberpunk setting in the single, large urban environment of Night City. Thus, CDPR decided to emulate the Grand Theft Auto games, as the applicable commercially-successful model for Cyberpunk 2077, rather than Bioware or the Elder Scrolls games. However, development was hindered substantially, such that even after being delayed for over a year it was still rushed out in December 2020 with various subsystems either removed or barely functional, while the game ran terribly on the PS4 that was the main console platform at the time. Moreover, CDPR made foolish decisions during development, such as re-designing the entire main quest around Keanu Reaves' character Johnny Silverhand. Although Night City itself was a splendid urban environment (at least at night or in the rain), gameplay was mediocre at best. Other than the views, Cyberpunk 2077 had little to offer aside from the numerous cinematic cutscenes, with Keanu Reeves ultimately featured more prominently than the player-character.

Organizational turnover might have been one of the problems afflicting Cyberpunk 2077's development, but the more fundamental issues reside in the high-level design decisions and that CDPR has been chasing after trends proven to be commercially-successful rather than improving their own, single attempt at devising a CRPG in their own style.
 

Roguey

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That is clearly not an insider, just someone posting his fan fic. None of the Witcher games are "crunchy" RPGs. :lol:
 

Dodo1610

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This has been disproven multiple times the first version of Cyberpunk was already stuck in development hell when Witcher team took over.
 

Lizard

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Weird, I also found out about the first Witcher game from XPlay. I ended up getting it from Direct2Drive, don't think it was available on steam. Didn't finish it until they released the uncensor and enhanced edition patches. It was alright, not amazing not complete garbage. I liked the island stuff, everything before that was whatever. Played 2 when it came out, Steam version came with drm from the supposedly anti-drm devs. Spent the entire time wondering if it was a console game, it later gets a console port. Then they went on the whole spiel about how they needed to design/downgrade 3 for consoles because the game couldn't exist without them. Haven't played through 3 and not sure I will, definitely not touching Cyberpunk lmao.

This of course all from the studio that almost went out of business trying to port/remake the first game:
It was 2009, two years after the first The Witcher, and the global economic crisis had CD Projekt on its knees. The money from the first game had been burned trying to clear up the mess of The Witcher: White Wolf, the console game that never was.
Make good money off of pc gamers, burn most of it chasing that console dragon. Same old story we've heard over and over. They were always doomed, it was just a matter of how soon after their initial success. These kinds of people are never satisfied with the audience/success they get. I doubt they would've stopped chasing console gamers even if Witcher 3 was another failure.
 

Robotigan

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Then they went on the whole spiel about how they needed to design/downgrade 3 for consoles because the game couldn't exist without them.
The console excuse is weak. The only true differentiator PC has is precision tracking from the mouse (until gyro controls become standardized on consoles) and Witcher doesn't need that. And as for processing power, The Witcher 3 was eventually released on the Nintendo Switch which is literally weaker than an iPhone. They had plenty of hardware overhead to work with. It's not like TW3 is trying to run fluid simulations and I doubt it'd have any purpose beyond a party trick if they did. The only thing pushing the computer is the graphics, and I'd consider that a pretty poor justification for a PC exclusive launch.
 

Drowed

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Honestly, you don't need an insider in CDPR to understand what happened. Obviously it is hard to predict exactly the specific factors that combined to cause Cyberpunk to fail, but in retrospect the signs were very visible.

CDPR has never been a good company with system implementation. Witcher 1 and 2 had minimal interaction with the environments and NPCs. When they tried to do something more "ambitious" in Witcher 3, the illusion of world began to break down. There is virtually no AI behind the reactions of the NPCs and not coincidentally, there are no major events within the cities of Witcher 3. This is because the NPCs are not programmed to react to anything other than a bump or a huge noise (magic). CDPR tries to disguise this by placing fights inside enclosed environments within the city, isolating you from the rest and conveniently removing any NPCs from the area before the fight.

The point is, Witcher 3 is actually less interactive than any Bethesda game. It disguises how shallow its mechanics are with clever storytelling choices, separating conversations between characters in one space and combat in more distant areas. But the total lack of systems, which is not that noticeable in Witcher 3 because the game made you focus on other things, becomes impossible to disguise in an urban environment, within a city. They tried to go beyond their league, and failed. Bethesda/Ubisoft/Rockstar have, for decades, made iterations of their worlds and carried over the accumulated systems from previous versions of their games. CDPR underestimated the size of the job, and the incompetence of the managers added to the failure. The stupid attempt to make the game run on previous generation consoles was just the cherry on top.

Edit because I don't want to post again:

Elden Ring isn't bursting with physical simulation systems either. You don't need to do every prestige feature if the game shines somewhere else.

The reasons that make Elden Ring work are analogous to the reasons that make Witcher 3 "work" as well - the setting in design of the environments. Elden Ring does not need a traffic system, a police/crime system, a system that controls the reaction of dozens of NPCs to any generic character action, etc. Cyberpunk needs that to make the game's world work in a city, in an open-world environment, and, because it doesn't have that, it failed. Hell, even Zelda BoTW has NPCs that are little more than cardboard decorating the villages, but it works because you don't have to interact with them in other contexts.

Cyberpunk should not have been an open world game. It probably would have been an infinitely better game if it was more like a Deus EX, with main hubs where you would have the character interactions and the dungeons/instances where you would accomplish your quests/missions. But hey, being "open world" is what brings in the big bucks and it worked in the previous game, right? And again, it is exactly because they think like that that what happened, happened.
 
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Robotigan

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The point is, Witcher 3 is actually less interactive than any Bethesda game. It disguises how shallow its mechanics are with clever storytelling choices, separating conversations between characters in one space and combat in more distant areas. But the total lack of systems, which is not that noticeable in Witcher 3 because the game made you focus on other things, becomes impossible to disguise in an urban environment, within a city. They tried to go beyond their league, and failed. Bethesda/Ubisoft/Rockstar have, for decades, made iterations of their worlds and carried over the accumulated systems from previous versions of their games. CDPR underestimated the size of the job, and the incompetence of the managers added to the failure. The stupid attempt to make the game run on previous generation consoles was just the cherry on top.
Elden Ring isn't bursting with physical simulation systems either. You don't need to do every prestige feature if the game shines somewhere else.
 
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Holy shit what the fuck is with these new people joining either this year or last year who only have cyberpunk and witcher to make threads about.

You know there are OTHER rpgs, right? Baldur's Gate, Planescape, Gold box, spiderweb software games, Fallout even? Why do these rpg equivalent Marvel fans keep coming here to regurgitate for the millionth time why cd projekt red fucked up? Seriously it's like watching someone speculate the stock market, take an economics class, come out saying basic bitch tier shit, like they're so wiser than thou for discussing "real problems" in industries. Congratulations, you've successfully made it onto my list of insufferable people to immediately write off, right there next to people who think Baldur's Gate 3 is good.
 

Ladonna

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I didn't mind the first game, it was something that was pretty decent in a really shitty time period for CRPG's. I tried the second and hated the console like controls, and haven't tried the third.
 

WhiteShark

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That is clearly not an insider, just someone posting his fan fic. None of the Witcher games are "crunchy" RPGs. :lol:
Not that I'm really knowledgeable about the internal state of CDPR development but I do clearly remember a time when Cyberpunk 2077 was advertised as being a true RPG and how later previews dropped that element, much to the chagrin of the monocled few. I wouldn't be surprised if the explanation posted was mostly true.
 

Roguey

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That is clearly not an insider, just someone posting his fan fic. None of the Witcher games are "crunchy" RPGs. :lol:
Not that I'm really knowledgeable about the internal state of CDPR development but I do clearly remember a time when Cyberpunk 2077 was advertised as being a true RPG and how later previews dropped that element, much to the chagrin of the monocled few. I wouldn't be surprised if the explanation posted was mostly true.
That's pure marketing. There was never anything "monocled" about CD Projekt.
 

Gargaune

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CDPR therefore emulated Skyrim, or more broadly the Open World Elder Scrolls games (possibly also Fallout 3 and/or Fallout: New Vegas), for The Witcher 3, though retaining a focus on narrative cutscenes with its predefined character Geralt and with much less dungeon-crawling. The Witcher 3 sold far better than its predecessor, and CDPR then turned to seeking inspiration for a game in a Cyberpunk setting in the single, large urban environment of Night City. Thus, CDPR decided to emulate the Grand Theft Auto games, as the applicable commercially-successful model for Cyberpunk 2077, rather than Bioware or the Elder Scrolls games.
Rubbish, just because TW3 has swords doesn't mean it was aping Skyrim, there's no design overlap with Bethesda's formula beyond "open world." CDPR went gunning for Rockstar with TW3, it's GTA5 but with a flimsy skills system, great art direction and non-shit writing. One of their head honchos stated it outright that Rockstar was the developer they aspired to emulate in some interview back in the day. (Then Ubisoft came along and started churning out TW3 knockoffs.)

CBP wasn't a departure from that, they just carried on with the same approach - slapped guns, a FPP and a lot more pointless numbers onto TW3 and called it a day. If there had been any Bethesda DNA in CDPR's thinking, even some leftovers, it might not have turned out such a massive disappointment. It's all been GTA all along.
 

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