I was wrong

[merry andrew]

I didn't mean endless respawns. I stated, if you recall, "someone well armed and guarded since his predecessor was killed". After 2 deaths, it could be very WELL guarded.

If you can kill them, and they're essential and thus have a script to be replaced, that means endless respawns... unless you're going to give the essential NPC replacements an advantage that the PC can never equal nor surpass.

Might as well make every essential NPC a ghost (an invulnerable one, yah). Really though, you should totally put the endless essential NPC respawn thingy in your game

 

[Human Shield]

You want a better solution? Come up with a GAME OVER screen. Sure it's not really any different but if you kill Prince Important Quest Giver, rather than popping up the load game box, have the screen go blank and a big slide come up (ala Fallout). It can be a nice image of the dead Prince and a voice-over saying "With the death of the Prince and no-one left to command the army, the Elves were over-run by the Orcish hoardes."

Exactly. If the character is a realistic absolute turning point for the outcome of the main story, having a small ending works great. The story of Fallout 1+2 is what happens to Vault 13/ your tribe, if you kill them you get an ending.

Only a few people would realistically be that important.

But Oblivion will probably use the same system of Morrowind of having the pointless main quest givers be essential for no reason.

This guy beat Morrowind in 14 minutes without talking to any of the "broken world LOL people", so why the hell do they matter?

Race: Argonian (Chosen for 50 Speed, 40 Intelligence, Alchemy Bonus)
Class: Assassin (Chosen for Speed +10, Intelligence +10, Alchemy Minor Skill)
Sign: The Steed (Chosen for Speed +25)

Scyda Neen
Take ring (all) from barrel outside
Talk to Sellus Gravius "Morrowind", "duties" (gives you gold)
Travel by siltstrider to Balmora

Balmora
Go to Mage's Guild
Speak to Ranis Athrys, "join the Mages Guild"
Mage teleport to Caldera

Caldera
Steal master's alchemy set from top of tower in Mages Guild
Go to Ghorak Manor, steal Orcish armour from crate on top floor
Sell Orcish Greaves & Cuirass to Creeper
Go to Verick Gemain, Trader, Purchase Warhammer of Wounds, Amulet of Recall, and sell unwanted items
Mage teleport to Sadrith Mora

Sadrith Mora
Mages Guild, Purchase 10 Corkbulb, 10 Racer Plumes, 10 Trama Root from Tusamircil
Go to Imperial Shrine
Purchase 5 Chokeweed, 10 Saltrice from Scelian Plebo
Purchase 130 Ash Yam, 65 Bloat, 5 Guar Hide, Divine Intervention Spell from Aunius Autrus
Assign quick keys: Warhammer (1), Alchemy (2), Recall (3), Divine Intervention (4)
Create and drink Fortify Intelligence in batches of 5
Create Levitate potion
Levitate to Apothecary, Purchase 7 Shalk Resin, 5 Kagouti Hide from Pierlette Rostorard
Purchase 2 Vampire Dust, 60 Bloat from Anis Seloth, Alchemist
Create and drink Fortify Intelligence in batches of 5 from Ash Yam & Bloat
Create 2 Fortify Strength & Fortify Health from Ash Yam, Vampire Dust, Shalk Resin
Create 5 Fortify Luck from Guar Hide, Corkbulb
Create 5 Restore Health from Corkbulb, Saltrice
Create 5 Fortify Speed & Restore Fatigue from Kagouti Hide, Shalk Resin, Saltrice, Chokeweed
Divine Intervention, go to Mages Guild
Mage teleport to Ald-ruhn

Ald-ruhn
Purchase 3 Mark Scrolls from Tanar Llervi
Assign quick keys: Scroll of Mark (2)

Levitate North-East to Vemynal, Mark outside, get Sunder, Recall
Levitate South-East to Dagoth Ur, Mark outside
Levitate South to Odrosal, get key from Dagoth Odros, get Keening, Recall

Dagoth Ur
Run through facility, Mark Facility Cavern
Kill Dagoth Ur, enter Akulakhan's Cavern
Strike Heart with Sunder
Destroy Heart with Keening, equip other weapon to avoid death
Recall to Facility Cavern, speak to Azura

 

[merry andrew]

I like that video.

 

[Sol Invictus]

While I would like that too, I was wondering something. What if the main quest had you coming to a certain NPC many times throughout your adventure for an assortment of reasons, where you don't do a couple quests then you're done with him forever, yet you kill him in the beginning for whatever reason. Wouldn't it be difficult to do that?

What if every, or alot, or most important NPCs had you coming back to them many times throughout the story, wouldn't that make it very difficult? Wouldn't that be as hopeful as hoping they would make deep dialogue trees for however many important quest NPCs there are in the game, where like you said, no one should critisize them for that?

I'm no developer, so I'm pretty ignorant on the matter, but it seems like it would be more pain than what it's worth, at least in a game the size of oblivion?

Not really. Here is an example I often use to illustrate that point. You deal with many people on daily basis: your boss, your coworkers whose work you may depend on, people whose services might be important to you: a good accountant, an honest car mechanic, an insurance broker, etc. Would your life be over if one of them dies or moves? No. Someone will replace them eventually and often without introduction. Same here.

Take that fella from MW, Cassius Something. I assume he's fairly important as he gives you quests, promotions, and tips. Let's say you kill him for whatever reasons. Would it be too much to assume that someone else will take his place? Someone well armed and guarded since his predecessor was killed? Do you think it's a lot of design work to make such a character or characters with some minor dialogues explaining that he's taking over? Not really. Nothing else would be changed: same quests, same dialogues, same mechanics, same results, just a different name and few little extras that shouldn't be difficult, especially when you have that uber RADiant AI gadget.

What if you kill the replacement, too? It would make absolutely zero sense for you to keep killing replacements and for the game to keep creating them over and over and over.

 

[Sarkile]

The kid in that video sure knew his way around an alchemy set.

 

[Sol Invictus]

For what it's worth, I agree with Bethesda's method of dealing with 'required' NPCs. Granted, I don't think NPCs should be so important in the first place, but as it is unavoidable, I prefer the method mentioned over having 'super NPCs' (if they're so super, why don't they do the damn quest themselves?), or unattackable NPCs. (immersion breaking)

The way I see it, the best way to do it would be to reload from the instant before you attack the guy and have the narrator say something like, "But you didn't really do that, did you? That never happened."

 

[Sarkile]

It would be nice though if you could kill them after their use in the quest was played out. If Bethesda implemented something similar to DU's idea, I think that would probably be the best way to go.

 

[Surlent]

Heh that reminds me of KotOR2 first town's local criminal gang (the one led by the octopus freak) had the door guard replaced when you killed it. It was fun to kill it again and again and they never opened the door even when their predecessors got killed because of it. They even had different dialogues.

And if you find yourself in combat with one, you can always attempt to yield.

I will never yield for I am the chosen one.

I don't really care if the game forces you to load if you kill an essential NPC. It was like that in Morrowind, so whatever.

Me either (though it can be annoyance) and if Morrowind had something similar I think majority will look past it too. Don't most people still think Oblivion is Morrowind 2?

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

I think it's a completely ass idea. Given a fantasy setting, if you can't come up with something other than a load screen for when a player kills an "important NPC", you've failed as a designer. There's gobs of options seen in various other games, books, what have you. You can:

• Have divine intervention. If there's some huge evil popping up out of hell, I'd say there would be gods and such who probably wouldn't want this happenning. You kill an NPC, some light from above pops up and ressurrects the guy and then punishes you in some way for it.
  
• Ressurrection by magic means. Have the guy protected by a council of wizards or priests who will pop that guy back to life when he's needed because that guy is important, that guy paid them for services like that, that council knows it's in their interest to do so, etc.
  
• Have the guy keep a journal. If this person is knowledgable about the great evil demons popping up out of hell, then he probably took some notes because he is a scholar of some sort. That way, you can do away with the guy and still go based on the notes he transcribed.
  
• Have the guy be well protected. He can be protected from harm by conventional means.. Guards who will beat you down in numbers to pacify your anti-social ass. This way, no one gets killed. No matter how bad you are, there's always something that can smite you and a group of guards are great for this.
  
• GHOSTS! Here's a thought, you kill an importanty dude.. Well, since what he wanted you to do is unfinished, his poor soul is doomed to walk the world until that thing is done.

I could go on with this, but if you guys can't come up with similar devices that cover all the nice little quest givers, you should probably just stick to writing engines.

 

[Sol Invictus]

Better yet, do it Baldur's Gate style. The dead npc is replaced by a temporary actor.

 

[kris]

Moron indicators? Would you rather find out AFTER you killed someone that you needed to reload? Wouldn't you rather know ahead of time? Or would you rather we do what Gothic did, and not allow you to attack them in the first place?

Yes. If you are forced to load it is safe to assume that the only thing killing them achieves is taking time. In that case it is better if you could not do it.

or unattackable NPCs. (immersion breaking)

How is it immersive when killing him ends the game? the only immersion difference is "time". It's like having a suicide option in a game, 'press the suicide button' "Hehe, I killed myself... okay now I must reload/restart"

 

[dunduks]

Better yet, do it Baldur's Gate style. The dead npc is replaced by a temporary actor.

Or even better - do it Planscape style: speak to the dead, rise him as a zombie get all the answers and have him follow you around. As Saint pointed out, there are multitudes of possible solutions that look elegant and are quite easy and fast to implement.

 

[Balor]

Oh, dunduks, you are a genius! I wish you were an Oblivion dev
Well, while you couldn't really just 'kill everyone, then rise and speak to 'em' in P:T (at least, I don't recall that) - it can be VERY interesting approach for those of evil alignment.
'Shoot first - ask questions later!' develops a whole new layer of meaning .

 

[Crnobog]

• Have divine intervention. If there's some huge evil popping up out of hell, I'd say there would be gods and such who probably wouldn't want this happenning. You kill an NPC, some light from above pops up and ressurrects the guy and then punishes you in some way for it.

*BE WARNED! SACRIFICING MY OWN CREATURES IS NOT SOMETHING I WELCOME WITH JOY!* Your equipment turns to dust. A bolt of lightning hits you! You die.

 

[MrSmileyFaceDude]

SP -- how do you know that some or all of those things aren't all being done in certain instances? It's all a matter of choosing your battles as a designer. Do you want to spend your time making sure you can complete everything in the game even if you kill everyone -- which COULD lead to intentionally simplifying the quests -- or do you want to spend your time making the quests as good as possible? The essential NPC flag removes that battle for the designers, so they can focus on the more important task of making interesting, compelling quests. They always have the ability to handle the deaths of NPCs when it makes sense to do so.

Oh, and as far as the game over screen -- what would you do after you saw it? I know I would reload so I could continue playing

 

[Sarvis]

<B>Vault Dweller</b>

While you are correct in a general sense that life goes on if someone dies/leaves/whatevers... that is only in a general sense.

In a more real sense, when new management comes in people get nervous because there's a much higher chance of layoffs. The new "boss" might just not like the hero so he doesn't give him quests, or he wants to bring in his own people or whatever.

A great example of this in fiction is Seinfeld. In the show they were creating their own TV series, and the President of NBC (or whatever) was pretty much the only person who thought the show was a good idea. At one point in the Sienfeld series the President disappears, and the next thing you know George and Jerry's TV career is over! Load screen time!


This also becomes a problem with specialized knowledge and skills. This is what my blacksmith example was meant to get across, and while you CAN expect a blacksmith in the next town maybe you intended your RPG to only take place in one small town. Or maybe the specialist in question is the only priest in the area with the necessary power to commune with the dead, or something like that.

 

[Sarvis]

Oh, and as far as the game over screen -- what would you do after you saw it? I know I would reload so I could continue playing

Again, this is the Codex. They would complain about how Game Over screens were a crime against roleplaying!

 

[Twinfalls]

Storm in a TEScup

 

[Atrokkus]

Preventing player from killing an essential NPC.. hmm

Well, in a more story-driven RPG such measures are abosultely necessary. For instance, in Torment you surely couldn't kill a lot of NPCs (hah, including yourself!).

Such limitations even were present in the most freeform RPG - FALLOUT 2: you couldn't kill the Elder or start a fight with other villagers without subsequent reloading.

In Gothic many plot-critical NPCs were immortal, at least temporarily.


So the question is: which approach is beter: immortality or killing-reloading?

Actually, both have their pros and cons, in equal measure.
Immortality, as in Gothic, is kinda more naturally-blending with the world and player's perception. But only at first. See, in Gothic the first big part of the game you are pretty green and can't really fight guys like Torrus, Gorn or Lee. You wouldn't hurt them much even if they were mortal. So this restriction is absolutely insensitive to the player at start.

While the kill-reload method is way too much like some BANG! YOU FUCKFACE, THIS NPC IS ESSENTIAL!
Kinda too straight-forward. But at the same time, it's fun taht way.
I mean, you can actually KILL the bastard! You can just do it for fun, just like you can do some things for fun in Fallout and then reload, just because you know it's not right for your walkthru.
IN this sense, it is surely the best option.




But hell, this shit is nonessential, really.

SPIT OUT THE REALLY IMPORTANT STUFF: ARE THERE GOOD DIALOGS, NPC PERSONALITIES?????? Or fucking wikipedia-morks again???


PLz ^_^

 

[Claw]

Because if the Hero isn't stronger, then why doesn't the NPC go solve the problem himself?

That is the usual argument, right?

It's folk theory. Like dophins being fish.

What if you kill the replacement, too? It would make absolutely zero sense for you to keep killing replacements and for the game to keep creating them over and over and over.

Well said. A player would have to play a psychotic maniac to keep killing the replacements. In that case it's not really necessary to preserve a story that he obviously doesn't care about anyway. But the nice thing about more subtle solutions to dead NPCs is that there are many of them, and you don't have to stick to a single one.
You can kill an NPC and a couple of replacements. You can find a journal or messages. You can summon his spirit from beyond the grave.
If a player insists of cutting all strings to solving the main quest, which shouldn't be possible instantanously, and hard to do by accident, there should be a consequence in the gameworld. A cutscene followed by game over may be considered crude, but it's better than a prompt to reload. If it wasn't we could remove all cut-scenes from games, because apparently they have no meaning.
I know I felt cheated when I finished Syndicate. I feel cheated the same way when I kill an essential character and am forced to reload.

It's all a matter of choosing your battles as a designer.

It's only a battle if you don't know what you want, a story-driven adventure or a character-driven RPG. I know what I want, so it's not a battle for me. Give me a compelling background, some motivation to start going and some keypoints for the main quest. I'll fill in the story, so focus on making that possible.

At one point in the Sienfeld series the President disappears, and the next thing you know George and Jerry's TV career is over! Load screen time!

By "one point" you must bean the last episode of the whole series, right? Otherwise you are making the argument for the other side.

Or maybe the specialist in question is the only priest in the area with the necessary power to commune with the dead, or something like that.

In other words, you go out of your way to make an NPC irreplaceable. How about you don't.

 

[Sarvis]

At one point in the Sienfeld series the President disappears, and the next thing you know George and Jerry's TV career is over! Load screen time!

By "one point" you must bean the last episode of the whole series, right? Otherwise you are making the argument for the other side.

No.

In the real life TV series called "Seinfeld", the characters Jerry and George were writing a TV show of their own called "Jerry." In "Seinfeld" the president of NBC disappeared, meaning that the characters could no longer get "Jerry" on the air.

 

[Claw]

I know the show. I was being rhetorical.

 

[Vault Dweller]

If you can kill them, and they're essential and thus have a script to be replaced, that means endless respawns... unless you're going to give the essential NPC replacements an advantage that the PC can never equal nor surpass.

What if you kill the replacement, too? It would make absolutely zero sense for you to keep killing replacements and for the game to keep creating them over and over and over.

Failed your Reading Comprehension roll? One more time, from my earlier post:
"I didn't mean endless respawns. I stated, if you recall, "someone well armed and guarded since his predecessor was killed". After 2 deaths, it could be very WELL guarded. "

It would make sense for a strong organization whose representatives/leaders are getting killed to take certain steps to protect their safety: a room full of guards and battle mages, a heavy door without a lock that could be opened only from within only after you leave your weapons with the guards and the mages drain your magicka, or just communicating through letters and notes that could be delivered to you (Daggerfall), etc.

 

[Vault Dweller]

In a more real sense, when new management comes in people get nervous because there's a much higher chance of layoffs. The new "boss" might just not like the hero so he doesn't give him quests, or he wants to bring in his own people or whatever.

Well, in most cases a new boss doesn't give a shit who will do the tasks as long as them tasks are getting done. Since in a game, especially one like TES games, tasks are always done, there is no reason for a boss not to like you. Your character is a go-getter and overachiever, so he'll always be liked.

At one point in the Sienfeld series the President disappears, and the next thing you know George and Jerry's TV career is over! Load screen time!

Not really. Otherwise, you wouldn't have a chance to watch that show in the first place. :wink:

This is what my blacksmith example was meant to get across, and while you CAN expect a blacksmith in the next town maybe you intended your RPG to only take place in one small town. Or maybe the specialist in question is the only priest in the area with the necessary power to commune with the dead, or something like that.

That also depends on a quest design, doesn't it? My respawn example was for the TES style design where there are many towns and guilds (a Fighter guild is basically in every town), so finding a substitute isn't a problem.

If, however, a game takes place in one town or NPCs are limited then we have a right to expect a better design and workarounds.

 

[DemonKing]

It's probably not fair to pick on Bethesda here as almost every CRPG I can think of has had these kind of issues down the years - even Lord British in some of the early Ultima games was protected by virtually unkillable guards to stop you going on a rampage.

Besides if you murdered the king/lord or whatever in most places at a minimum you would be impriosned for the rest of your natural life and more likely slain immediately or executed, so your game would be effectively over anyway.

Super-guards, reloads, invincible NPCs, NPC tags etc - it's all the same to me. Sure it's not realistic but I would rather Bethesda took the time and resources needed to improve NPC dialogs rather than trying to satisfy the tiny majority of psychos that think being able to kill any NPC anytime = TEH ROLEPLAYING.