Editorial Heroes, War and their representation in games

[DarkUnderlord]

I thought this one deserved a bit of front page attention (He mentions Skyrim, so it's ok):

I am a private military contractor, and I have an issue with the depiction of war in videogames — or more specifically, the soldiers in those games.
[...]
Imagine a war game where you could only move at a slow walking pace. Imagine Skyrim when your inventory is too full, except you can’t drop any of it. This war game has a prone button like Call of Duty, but your character takes 2-3 seconds to change position. Every time you press it, the animation gets slower because your character becomes more and more tired.
[...]
None of the stereotypes exist. They are put in place by a media and a military that hates the wars we fight but loves the men fighting in them.

Let me give you an example. I was in Iraq in 2007. Over a 3-month period, we saw some of the bloodiest fighting since the invasion, losing more than ten men and killing hundreds of insurgents. A reporter for a very well-known men’s lifestyle magazine visited us to learn about our experiences. About halfway through his escort, an officer from the military media centre tells him that he is not allowed to speak to us anymore. He has to use stories taken from a non-combat unit earlier that day. It turned out that the officer was appalled at the jovial nature of our recollections; the story in which a vehicle commander sawed two men in half with a mounted machinegun because they were on their phones “dicking” us made him balk in particular.​

Would you play a real war game?

Thanks Trash.

 

[Zed]

losing more than ten men and killing hundreds of insurgents

that's a pretty good ratio, though.

 

[Gord]

Although one might be tempted to ask how many insurgents actually were just civilians with bad timing.

 

[commie]

losing more than ten men and killing hundreds of insurgents

that's a pretty good ratio, though.

Too bad real statistics don't back that up. Even the most optimistic reports have 'insurgent' casualties at between 21000 and 26000 or so between 2003 and 2011 and another 7000-10000 during the actual invasion while the 'good guys' have lost 21000 in that same period, around 5000 US/Allies and mercenaries and 16000 Iraqi collaborator troops. The Iraqi resistance had a much better kill to loss ratio than the Vietnamese hardly surprising given the remote controlled nature of the resistance for the most part which was necessary given the total technological and firepower superiority of the US.

What really happened though is that they probably killed 30-40 real 'terrorists' and a few hundred civilians which has always been the norm with the US. This quote: "the story in which a vehicle commander sawed two men in half with a mounted machinegun because they were on their phones “dicking” us made him balk in particular." pretty much tells me where those 'hundreds' came from. Those became the 'terrorists/insurgents'.

The US always likes to make shit up like with the F-86 having a 13:1 kill ratio against the Mig-15 in Korea. The reality was less than 3:1 closer to 2:1 even. Even this doesn't tell the whole story as the Soviet/Chinese squadrons were rotated in and out for monthly tours to get combat experience and so they would suffer disproportionate losses at the start before getting better. By the time they got proficient they would be replaced by another raw squadron. The US on the other hand always flew with battle hardened pilots.

 

[hoopy]

I'm inclined to agree with some of the comments over there that cast doubt on the truthfulness of this article.

 

[Bruma Hobo]

(He mentions Skyrim, so it's ok)

He didn't mention any RPG

 

[Kz3r0]

Would you play a real war game?

'Real' war games never existed, first because we are talking about games after all, second because the genre always been the most base Kwanzanian propaganda.
All in all war games has always been of the Rambo variety or targeted at the Von Clausewitz wannabes, the genre took a turn for the worse when it has become a factory of overpriced America's Army clones.

 

[Gord]

I'm inclined to agree with some of the comments over there that cast doubt on the truthfulness of this article.

Maybe, maybe not. One is of course inclined to believe whatever fits the own world-view.
His numbers definitely can be challenged, he basically admits that he came up with them by himself and they are based on nothing else but his own assumptions and observations.
Socio-/Psychopaths are certainly a reality though, and it would make sense for them to accumulate in certain professions (military, police, hedgefons, upper managent) - although the most obvious or most stupid will be sorted out.

I think we can be sure about one thing, which is that most computer games are not an accurate depiction of reality.

 

[The_scorpion]

it's a good thing games aren't like reality. Real combat, or real life in general, has tons of bad game design choices.

but yeah, whether or not this stuff isn't shown for propaganda reasons or because it woulnd't be fun to play is a different story worth contemplating.

 

[Eyeball]

Private military contractor? Awesome, I'd play that game.

Press X to collect paycheck 10 times bigger than what ordinary soldiers get paid with next to zero accountability for your actions, press R to sell American issue weapons to insurgents and press Start to callously profit from a conflict that has nothing to do with you.

When America finally decides to leave those middle eastern shitholes they're currently occupying, I hope they'll forget to take their PMCs with them. Their beheading videos on Al Jazeera would be a joy to behold.

 

[Commissar Draco]

:patriot:Fags are trying to sell their useless wars peace operations as jolly good things as opossed as Russian, Chinese or German ones. News at 11.00 True wars are to horrible to play with Fagots.
Unless they are made in 1:200 yards scale and 5 minutes turns.

 

[Oesophagus]

Gonna have to take the guy's word for it. I did always think that it must take a special kind of person to willingly engage in war as a profession.

 

[Jigawatt]

I would play a 'real war' game:

 

[Baron]

This just in.... PCs who put their min stat into INT and CHA make the best Fighters.

 

[DwarvenFood]

Read it through Reddit couple of days back, nice piece in a way - regardless of how accurate but it seems in line with the other clusferfuck stories from Iraq.

 

[Yeesh]

Leaving aside the obvious fact that any real life activities (other than boating or driving an 18-wheeler) are way too boring to make into games with any kind of verisimilitude, I think it's worth looking at the tension between wanting to play as the plucky underdog who overcomes the odds on the one hand, and the havoc-wrecking technologically superior force with all the cool toys on the other. It's telling reading about all the convoluted plot lines modern shooters have to invent to service both these desires simultaneously, and how little such scenarios ape the experiences of a real soldier.

 

[Awor Szurkrarz]

He should play OFP.

 

[commie]

Leaving aside the obvious fact that any real life activities (other than boating or driving an 18-wheeler) are way too boring to make into games with any kind of verisimilitude, I think it's worth looking at the tension between wanting to play as the plucky underdog who overcomes the odds on the one hand, and the havoc-wrecking technologically superior force with all the cool toys on the other. It's telling reading about all the convoluted plot lines modern shooters have to invent to service both these desires simultaneously, and how little such scenarios ape the experiences of a real soldier.

This is the big problem with modern shooters and even those from WW2. You're invariably on the side that historically had a massive numerical and firepower(and in the modern era, technological) advantage and so the only way to make the game seem heroic is to limit your sides' participation in the conflict to a small group of Special Forces troops with high tech gadgets or make some story about a lone agent in Nazi Germany or a force that gets cut off from the rest of the army etc.

I would love to see an Arma style game where you are a Taliban and almost everything you do gets you killed. The only way to succeed(objective could be to get rid of occupier presence in your area within 3 game months) would be to scout out enemy patrol routes, avoid searches, look where to place IED's, ambushes, steal equipment, maintain your resources, recruit volunteers and so on. A bit like a more open version of OFP Resistance.

 

[Gregz]

Imagine a war game where you could only move at a slow walking pace. Imagine Skyrim when your inventory is too full, except you can’t drop any of it. This war game has a prone button like Call of Duty, but your character takes 2-3 seconds to change position. Every time you press it, the animation gets slower because your character becomes more and more tired.​

Actually, this is pretty much how today's shooters work.

It's a trend towards realism that I really wish would reverse itself.

Back in the days of Quake and Unreal and Counter Strike beta, your avatar(weapon) was as fast as you could turn the mouse, hit a key, or click a mouse button.

Then there was 'bunny hopping' in CS. To fix it they added a 'lag' after you jumped, it was a hack to the half-life engine that prevented players from b-hopping for faster movement. Somewhere along the way some dickless asshole must have thought this was a great idea because it added 'realism'. So then came slower running (day of defeat), slower prone, slower crouch, slower reloads, slower weapon swaps. It just kept getting slower and slower and slower. I don't play the new shooters because they are so slow.

Realism is nice and all, but not when it neuters game play.

TL;DR version:

Real combat, or real life in general, has tons of bad game design choices.

 

[Cassidy]

Leaving aside the obvious fact that any real life activities (other than boating or driving an 18-wheeler) are way too boring to make into games with any kind of verisimilitude, I think it's worth looking at the tension between wanting to play as the plucky underdog who overcomes the odds on the one hand, and the havoc-wrecking technologically superior force with all the cool toys on the other. It's telling reading about all the convoluted plot lines modern shooters have to invent to service both these desires simultaneously, and how little such scenarios ape the experiences of a real soldier.

This is the big problem with modern shooters and even those from WW2. You're invariably on the side that historically had a massive numerical and firepower(and in the modern era, technological) advantage and so the only way to make the game seem heroic is to limit your sides' participation in the conflict to a small group of Special Forces troops with high tech gadgets or make some story about a lone agent in Nazi Germany or a force that gets cut off from the rest of the army etc.

I would love to see an Arma style game where you are a Taliban and almost everything you do gets you killed. The only way to succeed(objective could be to get rid of occupier presence in your area within 3 game months) would be to scout out enemy patrol routes, avoid searches, look where to place IED's, ambushes, steal equipment, maintain your resources, recruit volunteers and so on. A bit like a more open version of OFP Resistance.

BTW this mod is being ported to ArmA 2

*Edit: replaced with a more informative vid.

 

[deuxhero]

This just in.... PCs who put their min stat into INT and CHA make the best Fighters.

The Fighter with 13 int gets improved trip, which is tons better than whacking stuff slightly harder.

Now wisdom on the other hand, that CAN go.

 

[Awor Szurkrarz]

Imagine a war game where you could only move at a slow walking pace. Imagine Skyrim when your inventory is too full, except you can’t drop any of it. This war game has a prone button like Call of Duty, but your character takes 2-3 seconds to change position. Every time you press it, the animation gets slower because your character becomes more and more tired.​

Actually, this is pretty much how today's shooters work.

It's a trend towards realism that I really wish would reverse itself.

Back in the days of Quake and Unreal and Counter Strike beta, your avatar(weapon) was as fast as you could turn the mouse, hit a key, or click a mouse button.

Then there was 'bunny hopping' in CS. To fix it they added a 'lag' after you jumped, it was a hack to the half-life engine that prevented players from b-hopping for faster movement. Somewhere along the way some dickless asshole must have thought this was a great idea because it added 'realism'. So then came slower running (day of defeat), slower prone, slower crouch, slower reloads, slower weapon swaps. It just kept getting slower and slower and slower. I don't play the new shooters because they are so slow.

Realism is nice and all, but not when it neuters game play.

TL;DR version:

I think that at this point CS should have been split in two games - one that attempts realism and one that is about all the arcade stuff. Generally, the main problem here are trends and fashions themselves - they limit the diversity of games. There should be both realistic simulation games and arcade games. Just as with TB/RT, Iso/FP, etc.

Have you tried Warsow? I tried it some time ago and it sounds like exactly what you're looking for - it has bunny hopping, is very fast and confusing, requires hitting many times to defeat an opponent and I think they introduced some special moves like for example wall-jumping.
I tried to play it but I get slaughtered by bots all the time - I think it's made specifically for veterans of the old arcade FPS games that have very good reflexes, coordination and love using various tricks.

 

[Gregz]

Yeah I agree about forking realism and twitch, because I know some people are just as religious about realism, I'm just not one of them.

I'll give Warsow a go thanks, sounds fun and it's free.

 

[Awor Szurkrarz]

Generally, to me it's not just a question of realism for realism itself, but also a question of gameplay and aesthetics.
For example in OFP there's stuff that I like as gameplay mechanics - having to avoid getting hit, preferably by avoiding getting seen, having to master the weapon and be able to hit things taking in account ballistics, fighting to first accurate hit, etc.
Then when it comes to aesthetics, I like when I hit someone with a burst and he/she falls down or can't stand or something like that. I see certain beauty in it. I like it even more when he/she doesn't just die, but for example folds up and screams or does something equally interesting.

While I find Warsow, satisfying challenge-wise, I don't find it satisfying aesthetically.

 

[hiver]

Shooters are ego boosters.
Therefore... -

savy?