Games with deep character progression?

[Rapscallion]

So hey,




Hi all, I kind of stumbled around here looking for possible games to try.

Some say that when you don't know something you should ask someone who knows and it seems this forum may be a good place to find that someone. I don't know what is the etiquette around here, but I figured I might as well just ask away and see what happens. Apologies if missed a step or something.

I'd like to know if there's an RPG-ish (RPG may be too much of a strict term) game out there, that I have missed (I haven't played that many...), with a nice, deep, layered, possibly quirky, character progression.

As a side question, I wonder why it is that today's games seem (to me) to get duller and more uninventive each day in that regard.


Since I can't pinpoint exactly what I mean by a ‘deep character progression’, I'll list a few examples of things I have seen in games over the years that I found potentially interesting but for some reason don’t seem to find space in the games that get made lately.

This is just a quick brainstorming from the top of my head:

-In the original Diablo you could learn your spells and level them up by finding books around, no class restrictions. This is a basic but valid depiction of my idea of how magical powers should be learned in a fantasy setting. Trainers are dumb.​

​

-In LOTR Online you could earn feats or traits or whatever they were called, by slaying a specific type of enemy, instead of picking it up from your class panel, again no class restrictions.​

The bonuses were rather lame, like 5% of this or that, but I liked the idea your character learned something from the interaction with the environment. That's a huge plus for me.​

​

-Elder Scrolls system to level up skills by just whacking your sword or running or jumping was kind of okay-ish. It lead to dumb situations where you could get many levels just by sneaking around and crafting stuff while having zero combat prowess. It sure needs polish and more variation, but why everyone is so scared of grinding mechanics nowadays?​

​

-In Fable the body of your character changed (somewhat) as his stats changed. This is purely cosmetic but I think details like this make the difference.​

​

-Quests giving you skills or spells. I’m pretty sure I’ve seen this a few times but I can’t remember where.​

I’ll stop here, I think I may have written even too much.

 

[Skorpion]

Since I can't pinpoint exactly what I mean by a ‘deep character progression’

How about you stop there and figure that out before making a post regarding said subject.

 

[Butter]

I think it's worth differentiating inventive progression systems from deep progression systems. The Pathfinder games (Kingmaker and Wrath of the Righteous) both offer very deep progression systems, with tons of options and endless permutations for your character build. But they're just working with the Pathfinder tabletop rules; there's nothing really inventive about that.

One thing I really like is when games use quests as part of their progression system. For example, in Wizards and Warriors, changing from a basic class to a prestige class involves going on a quest. Similarly, in Arcanum you have to complete quests in order to max out your skills.

 

[Rapscallion]

I think it's worth differentiating inventive progression systems from deep progression systems. The Pathfinder games (Kingmaker and Wrath of the Righteous) both offer very deep progression systems, with tons of options and endless permutations for your character build. But they're just working with the Pathfinder tabletop rules; there's nothing really inventive about that.

That is somewhat true. Your example is surely correct in that regard. Pathfinder games progression could be considered deep but surely there is no inventive in it, as it uses an already established set of rules.

Though inventive may be a difficult word. I mean, hardly anyone ever comes up with something really new, if you know what I mean.

So the trick may be to combine things in a new way, or simply have an original take on old classics, I don't know.

I played/I'm playing Kingmaker, for what is worth.

One thing I really like is when games use quests as part of their progression system. For example, in Wizards and Warriors, changing from a basic class to a prestige class involves going on a quest. Similarly, in Arcanum you have to complete quests in order to max out your skills.

Yeah, I agree. Haven't really played those though.

 

[ind33d]

Watch Dogs Bloodline isn't an RPG but you unlock every upgrade by performing a different quest for people in the world instead of putting points in a skill tree and you can do them in basically any order.

 

[KeighnMcDeath]

You can't get any deeper than this..

Too deep

Someone told me drivethru was having a sale. I clicked... i closed the window. Yeesh!
Drivethru Lament you god damn princess.. LAMENT!!

 

[Hag]

Kenshi

 

[Rean]

The Legend of Heroes: Trails of Cold Steel 1->4. Wonderful character progression for every single character.

 

[ghostlife]

but I liked the idea your character learned something from the interaction with the environment. That's a huge plus for me.

​

​

Kenshi

edit: oops didnt read replies first

 

[Rapscallion]

Watch Dogs Bloodline isn't an RPG but you unlock every upgrade by performing a different quest for people in the world instead of putting points in a skill tree and you can do them in basically any order.

That does sound nice.

You can't get any deeper than this..

Too deep

Someone told me drivethru was having a sale. I clicked... i closed the window. Yeesh!
Drivethru Lament you god damn princess.. LAMENT!!

Wow.

The Legend of Heroes: Trails of Cold Steel 1->4. Wonderful character progression for every single character.

As long as is not Persona I can give it a try. I'll check it for sure.

Kenshi

Kenshi

Must be worth a look.

 

[Zed Duke of Banville]

Troubleshooter: Abandoned Children has an intricate character customization system, in which gaining levels earns training points that can be utilized on a "mastery board" with five categories, on each of which can be placed generic "masteries" and class-specific "masteries", with a wide variety of effects, plus bonus effects by placing all elements in a "mastery set". Aside from the mastery board, there's also some equipment, ability selection, and a number of character stats.

 

[WhiteShark]

Gothic. You spend your skillpoints via NPC trainers to improve, but they each teach specific things and you have to be friendly with their faction to access their services, so your progression is shaped by your factional choices.

 

[deuxhero]

Since deep is down, Final Fantasy 4 had a character who actually lost stats as he leveled up.

 

[Tweed]

So hey,







I kind of have an answer.

I don't know if it's right, but I thought that games like Fallout and Underrail fit the bill along with games like:


Gothic, Gothic 2 and maybe Risen.


Darklands also fall into this category.


And tactical RPGs like Knights of the Chalice.

I'll stop there since I think I've said enough.

 

[DemonKing]

The latest Pathfinder is absolutely nuts with regards to variety and depth of character progression to the point it probably puts off anyone that doesn't have a deep understanding of Pathfinder and/or D&D.

 

[Softgels]

Gothic, Gothic 2

 

[Late Bloomer]

Path of Exile can be deep and rewarding just don't meta without trying your own
Dragons Dogma pawn system learning from how you play. Vocations
Everquest 2 AA's (progression server only)
Disco Elysium had your skills talk to you
Grim Dawn can create some interesting combos


Quirky you say? Oblivion

 

[Rapscallion]

Troubleshooter: Abandoned Children has an intricate character customization system, in which gaining levels earns training points that can be utilized on a "mastery board" with five categories, on each of which can be placed generic "masteries" and class-specific "masteries", with a wide variety of effects, plus bonus effects by placing all elements in a "mastery set". Aside from the mastery board, there's also some equipment, ability selection, and a number of character stats.

Looks promising. I'll just have to overcome the diffidence for that contemporary anime-style setting.

Gothic. You spend your skillpoints via NPC trainers to improve, but they each teach specific things and you have to be friendly with their faction to access their services, so your progression is shaped by your factional choices.

That's one way to do it too, I suppose. I wonder if the remake will keep things like that.

Gothic, Gothic 2

Gothic, Gothic 2 and maybe Risen.

Ok, ok I get it. I've heard the name before. It doesn't look like it has aged that well but I'll check that too.

Since deep is down, Final Fantasy 4 had a character who actually lost stats as he leveled up.

Uh, hi to you too?

So hey,







I kind of have an answer.

I don't know if it's right, but I thought that games like Fallout and Underrail fit the bill along with games like:


Gothic, Gothic 2 and maybe Risen.


Darklands also fall into this category.


And tactical RPGs like Knights of the Chalice.

I'll stop there since I think I've said enough.

Yeah, you are a funny little parrot, ain'tcha?

I don't know about Fallout. I never fancied first-person games, I often have motion sickness issues with that.
Underrail looks worth a try though.

 

[Rapscallion]

The latest Pathfinder is absolutely nuts with regards to variety and depth of character progression to the point it probably puts off anyone that doesn't have a deep understanding of Pathfinder and/or D&D.

Yeah, about that... can't speak for the last one, I haven't tried that yet, but I really don't dig that kind of progression.

It has no layers or variation. You just pick talents and spells from your class-specific tree as you level up. I guess it may be more fun when played as a PnP game.

Overall I liked the game (Pathfinder: Kingmaker that is), but I wouldn't take the character progression as an example for sure.

Path of Exile can be deep and rewarding just don't meta without trying your own
Dragons Dogma pawn system learning from how you play. Vocations
Everquest 2 AA's (progression server only)
Disco Elysium had your skills talk to you
Grim Dawn can create some interesting combos


Quirky you say? Oblivion

I've tried PoE.
And played Everquest 2 for a while, back in the day. It felt like a huge game but a little empty, I really liked it, but for some reason that I can't remember I moved on rather quickly.
Maybe I was already too late.
Generally speaking, I would steer clear of MMORPGs nowadays.

I'll be sure to check the others.

 

[anvi]

seems this forum may be a good place to find that

They only know single player RPGs, codex is MMOmophobic. Only a few people have played MMORPGs and even they only know a bit.

As a side question, I wonder why it is that today's games seem (to me) to get duller and more uninventive each day in that regard.

It's because of capitalism. Businesses can destroy competition and sabotage others, they have so much freedom to do that in legal ways. Read the bottom link in my signature, look at all that talent that was 'retired'. Other corporations have since joined in too, what's left is a wasteland. People are slow to figure out why this is. But really it's like, if you went around every business in your country, and shot the secretary in the head, there would eventually be a shortage of secretaries. What happened in gaming is no different, it was just done by paying those people to retire.

It's like ethnically cleansing the talent in the entire industry, and besides that they also deliberately made it so that the top games are $100 million monstrosities that all the kids want and use the latest tech that costs a lot of money. Now any average game studio is fucked, they can't compete with that. So they all died. The middle class of gaming studios have been massacred over the past 20 odd years. Now it's just a handful of AAA shitlords making franchised McCrap for the mainstream masses of idiots while abusing their position and constantly seeing how far they can push it. Or there's a million indie one man band developers who are mostly talentless hacks, roleplaying as indie game developers, but constantly failing to make anything that's even half as good as shareware from 1985.

-In the original Diablo you could learn your spells and level them up by finding books around, no class restrictions. This is a basic but valid depiction of my idea of how magical powers should be learned in a fantasy setting. Trainers are dumb.​

​

-In LOTR Online you could earn feats or traits or whatever they were called, by slaying a specific type of enemy, instead of picking it up from your class panel, again no class restrictions.​

The bonuses were rather lame, like 5% of this or that, but I liked the idea your character learned something from the interaction with the environment. That's a huge plus for me.​

​

-Elder Scrolls system to level up skills by just whacking your sword or running or jumping was kind of okay-ish. It lead to dumb situations where you could get many levels just by sneaking around and crafting stuff while having zero combat prowess. It sure needs polish and more variation, but why everyone is so scared of grinding mechanics nowadays?​

​

-In Fable the body of your character changed (somewhat) as his stats changed. This is purely cosmetic but I think details like this make the difference.​

​

-Quests giving you skills or spells. I’m pretty sure I’ve seen this a few times but I can’t remember where.​

There was an amazing game but it died due to bugs and failed launch. You learned some spells from a trainer but you learned some from enemies in the world by fighting them. Also as you levelled up you got multiple attribute points you could spend on your character and you could drastically change the character depending on how you spent the points. So a Bard with lots of Con, Sta, Agi was tanky. But if you pumped Str/Dex you could be like a glass cannon. And most classes had the same flexibility. You also had stances that let you focus on a style. The Shaman could do a quest to pray to a patron that changed the class and the pet. Bear shaman was tanky and strong healer, the bird shaman was damage focused, etc. They got a different pet and a bunch of different spells depending on which quest they did.

EverQuest is the closest thing but that game was great at release and got shitter each year it lived. 24 years later means it's total shit. There is p99 which is closer to the original but it's still shit. They never got close to the original and that too got worse over the years. If you put a map and uber gear in EverQuest then you may as well play World of Warcraft. The whole point of EQ was that it was brutal and unwelcoming and accomplishing anything felt amazing. That whole thing got ruined over the years.

That said p99 is still probably better than anything else.

 

[hayst]

There was a recent thread called RPGs that visualize character's progression in-game that might be worth looking into.

 

[Vic]

I played/I'm playing Kingmaker, for what is worth.

PF: WotR has Mythic paths which are a cool form of character progression. You can become a lich or gold dragon etc.

 

[Rapscallion]

They only know single player RPGs, codex is MMOmophobic. Only a few people have played MMORPGs and even they only know a bit.

I have had my share with a few years of WoW.

Leaving aside any other consideration, I don't have that kind of time on my hands anymore.

It's because of capitalism. Businesses can destroy competition and sabotage others, they have so much freedom to do that in legal ways. Read the bottom link in my signature, look at all that talent that was 'retired'. Other corporations have since joined in too, what's left is a wasteland. People are slow to figure out why this is. But really it's like, if you went around every business in your country, and shot the secretary in the head, there would eventually be a shortage of secretaries. What happened in gaming is no different, it was just done by paying those people to retire.

It's like ethnically cleansing the talent in the entire industry, and besides that they also deliberately made it so that the top games are $100 million monstrosities that all the kids want and use the latest tech that costs a lot of money. Now any average game studio is fucked, they can't compete with that. So they all died. The middle class of gaming studios have been massacred over the past 20 odd years. Now it's just a handful of AAA shitlords making franchised McCrap for the mainstream masses of idiots while abusing their position and constantly seeing how far they can push it. Or there's a million indie one man band developers who are mostly talentless hacks, roleplaying as indie game developers, but constantly failing to make anything that's even half as good as shareware from 1985.

That's depressing. Hopefully, things will change, sooner or later. They always do.

There was an amazing game but it died due to bugs and failed launch. You learned some spells from a trainer but you learned some from enemies in the world by fighting them. Also as you levelled up you got multiple attribute points you could spend on your character and you could drastically change the character depending on how you spent the points. So a Bard with lots of Con, Sta, Agi was tanky. But if you pumped Str/Dex you could be like a glass cannon. And most classes had the same flexibility. You also had stances that let you focus on a style. The Shaman could do a quest to pray to a patron that changed the class and the pet. Bear shaman was tanky and strong healer, the bird shaman was damage focused, etc. They got a different pet and a bunch of different spells depending on which quest they did.

Sounds like fun. Stuff like that, games getting canceled or failing or turning out complete crap, is what made me decide to avoid getting all hyped for games before they were already out.

EverQuest is the closest thing but that game was great at release and got shitter each year it lived. 24 years later means it's total shit. There is p99 which is closer to the original but it's still shit. They never got close to the original and that too got worse over the years. If you put a map and uber gear in EverQuest then you may as well play World of Warcraft. The whole point of EQ was that it was brutal and unwelcoming and accomplishing anything felt amazing. That whole thing got ruined over the years.

That said p99 is still probably better than anything else.

Not sure I could enjoy it today like you probably did back then.

 

[Rapscallion]

I played/I'm playing Kingmaker, for what is worth.

PF: WotR has Mythic paths which are a cool form of character progression. You can become a lich or gold dragon etc.

I'm going to play that sooner or later. It's nice to know they added new things.

There was a recent thread called RPGs that visualize character's progression in-game that might be worth looking into.

I read it before. In the end, it appears Fable was nearly the only one to do something like that. Pity.

 

[luj1]

-In LOTR Online you could earn feats or traits or whatever they were called, by slaying a specific type of enemy, instead of picking it up from your class panel, again no class restrictions.The bonuses were rather lame, like 5% of this or that, but I liked the idea your character learned something from the interaction with the environment. That's a huge plus for me.

Elite skills in Guild Wars 1. You get them by slaying monsters and 'capturing' their skills. Unfortunately that is an MMO, and a dead one at that, and I know of no other examples of that.

-Quests giving you skills or spells. I’m pretty sure I’ve seen this a few times but I can’t remember where.

Morrowind

-In Fable the body of your character changed (somewhat) as his stats changed. This is purely cosmetic but I think details like this make the difference.

Never seen that. Underrail Infusion is supposed to have it.

-Elder Scrolls system to level up skills by just whacking your sword or running or jumping was kind of okay-ish. It lead to dumb situations where you could get many levels just by sneaking around and crafting stuff while having zero combat prowess. It sure needs polish and more variation, but why everyone is so scared of grinding mechanics nowadays?

Levelling up by doing stuff I only have seen in TES games and Wizardry games I think. Perhaps Grimoire too, cant remember.

-In the original Diablo you could learn your spells and level them up by finding books around, no class restrictions. This is a basic but valid depiction of my idea of how magical powers should be learned in a fantasy setting. Trainers are dumb.

Escape from the Pit does that, excellent game. Oddity system in Underrail perhaps but not exactly what youre looking for.