Formulaic and Unimaginative Gameworlds

[Rahdulan]

In order to have more original settings, we need games designed by people who actually read history, specifically stuff that hasn't been done to death in some butchered form already, like European middle ages.

I don't think that's exactly true. A lot of so-called medieval fantasy games have very little in common with actual medieval Europe even if that's what people like to label as some kind of "default fantasy setting". These games almost always end up as some generic kitchen sinks where anything goes as long as you have knights, dwarves and elves, and dragons in there somewhere. I guess it doesn't help most are made by American developers.

 

[V_K]

How about an RPG which includes sailing down a jungle river on a small boat.

One of Tunnels&Trolls dungeons had a bit of that, although you were sailing a sewer system rather than a river.

 

[Neanderthal]

Death on the Reik.

 

[Bohrain]

In order to have more original settings, we need games designed by people who actually read history, specifically stuff that hasn't been done to death in some butchered form already, like European middle ages.

I don't think that's exactly true. A lot of so-called medieval fantasy games have very little in common with actual medieval Europe even if that's what people like to label as some kind of "default fantasy setting". These games almost always end up as some generic kitchen sinks where anything goes as long as you have knights, dwarves and elves, and dragons in there somewhere. I guess it doesn't help most are made by American developers.

I know people the default high fantasy is basically Disney medieval Europe, but I don't really see the appeal even if people implement it correctly.
I want to see something more alien, like mixing Polynesian pantheon with Incan society and war elephants.

 

[Jaesun]

Yes, Activision owns the Arcanum IP (as well as the IP for Bloodlines, not the setting). And yes, they aren't going to waste any money updating an old game.

I guess someone could buy all those rights off of them if they have lost interest in them. What they are worth and would it be worth it I've no idea, but that's what crazy overly-wealthy fans are for, right?

Activision, so far, seems to want to hold onto all of their IP rights. Even Jane Jensen tried to buy Gabriel Knight from them, and they said no.

 

[Lacrymas]

inb4 MRY comes in and asks you to clarify exactly what you mean by better writing. Worldbuilding? Narrative? Characters?

There is nothing abstract or vague when talking about good writers. You need a whole book and an entire semester (maybe even years) in a university being taught by an extraordinary professor to explain why, but that's one of the reasons people find it vague. Contrary to popular belief, it's not easy to be a good writer or to understand what a good writer is. There is a reason some people end up in the history of literature, it's not simply random coincidence. We have spoken with MRY about this in PMs actually and I know what he would say :p

To address the other point which is being discussed - it's not so simple to just place the action "somewhere that isn't Medieval Europe", just look at how Wasteland 2 turned out. Not to mention that there isn't a single game that does Medieval Europe right. The setting just provides an impetus for the worldviews and ideologies of the characters and justifies them. You can't have an SJW character in Medieval Europe for example, it doesn't make sense, just how you can't have a monarch-by-divine-right-like character in a modern setting (unless you are North Korea, I suppose, and even they pretend to have democratic elections and don't actually espouse the notion that he is divine). There is a reason Isaac Asimov writes in futuristic settings, it's because the themes and worldviews of the characters are impossible in any other time, BUT they are still a mirror put in front of reality in some way, just like all good art is. I.e. it's very complicated ;d

 

[IncendiaryDevice]

You didn't respond to his point, you just did a Rogua and continued your agenda preach regardless of the statements of others.

What exactly do you mean by writing? Just what NPCs say? If NPCs in any game I play talk for too long, no matter how 'good' it is, I start to nod off. Sorry, computer games aren't a written word medium, many people have been over this countless times. It's what you do in what environment using which rules which all come way above writing; take Dark Souls games as an example, they're almost silent, but they're winning people over by the million (though I've never played one) and I'm not even holding DS up as some paragon of perfection, it's not my cup of tea at all, but it's just an example that completely dumps your theory out the window. What is needed is a general desire for originality across the board, but without subverting the core concepts so much that it becomes a different game.

If you think words are somehow the golden missing piece in the grand jigsaw of decline, you're, sadly, barking up the wrong tree. I've no doubt text heavy games have a niche market like any other format, but it's not the focal point that incline requires.

 

[Lacrymas]

EDIT: Actually, fuck it, there really isn't a way to explain this, or at least I don't have the capacity to do that in a thread post. If someone else can explain the difference between Shelley's Prometheus Unbound (for example, you can take any great piece of literature) and Twilight in such a format, go ahead.

 

[ERYFKRAD]

If someone else can explain the difference between Shelley's Prometheus Unbound (for example, you can take any great piece of literature) and Twilight in such a format, go ahead.

One is shit and the other isn't?

 

[Beautiful Clown Painting]

I'd love to see a RPG including castles and monsters.

 

[B0rt]

It seems you like AoD and Underrail more than Fallout 2, Planescape: Torment and Jagged Alliance 2. Know what that makes you? A fucking idiot.

Just saying they're competitive, it's all cool dude. FO2 is one of my all time favs, really liked Torment also but that felt very adventure-game for me. JA2 is kickass tactical combat w/ extra RPG depth, indeed great, but not quite as focused as I like my CRPGs, it scratches a different itch. But seriously, I also can just go on about '15-16:

Serpents
Underrail
AoD
Caves of Qud (solo projects are feasible again)
Divinity: Asshole Simulator
Consortium (if only as a proof-of-concept, pretty neat)

Sunless Sea was a terrific stupidly failed experiment, could easily have bought it out of the discount bin in '92 and loved every hideous wasted minute. Some 14 year old playing it today is going to have a twisted nostalgic memory of it in their mind 20 years from now, mostly only remembering the parts they enjoyed and recalling far better writing than there ever was in any game. Excellent original setting & atmosphere, at least.

There's also RPGesque Sim stuff that has flourished recently, like:

Rimworld
Prison Architect
DF (adventure mode improvements, ongoing madness, nothing like this in the 90s eh, also solo project)

Then there's this kind of game, kind of a difficult-casual style, that's starting to feel a little like stronger C64 / Apple II era games: Westerado (seriously! Westerado), The Imperialist Death Expedition, 80 Days, even The Consuming Shadow, all were good and tried to break formula in various ways, often successfully. These games seem to be coming out of nowhere, idgi.

It feel like I've practically been falling ass backwards into excellent RPG & RPG-like games for months now. Feels like good times are here again. This stuff's really too bland for people? Caves of Qud feels as weird as ol' Gamma World but maybe more thematically consistent, it's nuts.

I haven't played any newer CRPGs, but I doubt if 2015-16 is more golden than 1988-89, 92-93 or 98-99.

We might be getting into another similar good patch. Check it out, maybe go shopping, interesting stuff is afoot.

 

[Taka-Haradin puolipeikko]

The Imperialist Death Expedition

What's that?
Searching it on google only gives best Korea stuff.

Spoiler

Seriously 1st result on youtube

 

[shihonage]

Homogenous looks, homogenous story, homogenous gameplay. This is why I don't play games anymore. They're nothing more than Excel spreadsheets thinly covered in shiny layers of 3D rendering.

 

[Popiel]

This is why I don't play games anymore. They're nothing more than Excel spreadsheets thinly covered in shiny layers of 3D rendering.

They were always only that, so what's your point exactly? That before it was 2D layer covering Excel sheets?

 

[kris]

i dont think there is a lack of creativity in the industry, it is easy to find great concept artist and i seen plenty of smaller games showing the creative minds of people.

the problem is FEAR. I perfect example is Dragon age which initially was supposed to have original races. But they feared that this would not sell as well, so they put in the usual suspects. Pretty much all big budget games go the safe route with familiar faces and things in them.

 

[Popiel]

Dragon Age setting as a whole screams with wasted potential. What they did with some parts of the story (Elven deities and their nature and so on) in DA:I is just simply sad, this world could have been so much more.

 

[Doctor Sbaitso]

This is why I don't play games anymore. They're nothing more than Excel spreadsheets thinly covered in shiny layers of 3D rendering.

They were always only that, so what's your point exactly? That before it was 2D layer covering Excel sheets?

My guess is he means that everyone is creating the same shit.

For the second part regarding spreadsheets, once you know the mechanics and systems, the shine comes off and shit becomes a joyless pursuit. Games just happen to be shallow and transparent in most cases, so what's the point?

I call this middle-aged-gamer syndrome and I suffer from it.

 

[TOUGH GUY]

Today in a Lone Wolf gamebook I made a daring escape from a Darlord by flying off on a giant eagle, I fought undead mounted on evil pteradactyls in the sky and was rescued by a friendly wizards flying galleon, crewed by rifle armed Dwarves

I only regret that I have but one brofist to give.

 

[Brancaleone]

i dont think there is a lack of creativity in the industry, it is easy to find great concept artist and i seen plenty of smaller games showing the creative minds of people.

the problem is FEAR. I perfect example is Dragon age which initially was supposed to have original races. But they feared that this would not sell as well, so they put in the usual suspects. Pretty much all big budget games go the safe route with familiar faces and things in them.

If the only problem was fear, we'd see a lot of boring, unimaginative, safe stuff, yeah, but well executed (or even superbly executed).
But when execution is equally poor, that means the main cause is lack of talent and competence, and fear is only a secondary cause.

P.S. Besides, if you know that at best, if you are really lucky, you'll be able to produce barely decent stuff, fear becomes much more of a factor than if you know that you are able to make great stuff, in which case you are less afraid of taking risks originality-wise.

 

[mitochondritom]

It feel like I've practically been falling ass backwards into excellent RPG & RPG-like games for months now. Feels like good times are here again. This stuff's really too bland for people? Caves of Qud feels as weird as ol' Gamma World but maybe more thematically consistent, it's nuts.

Caves of Qud is absolutely brilliant. It somehow has all that batshit crazy Gamma World nonsense in it, but still comes across as a serious setting in a procedural generated world. To me, its an astonishing achievement. I really agree with you that 2015-16 has been fantastic and without stoking the fires a lot of these newer titles absolutely hold up in comparison to older ones.

 

[TheSlapper55X]

Are modern CRPGs too unambitious?

• In Labyrinth of Worlds I explored many different realms under rule of the Guardian, I flew, swam, jumped, levitated, water walked, teleported within them and could crash the Flying Fortress of Killorn Keep into the world below killing everyone in it, plumb the depths of the Ethereal Void, discover a city entombed under a great glacier, or brave the perils of the Scintillus Magic Academies final exam.
• In Ultimas I could jump in starships, travel to other worlds, time travel, teleport, ride horses, drive wagons, sail ships, venture through Moongates, ride magic carpets etc.
• In Betrayal at Krondor I travelled to an alien world, destroyed by the Valheru, where magic hid in crystal formation, gods lingered in great pillars of stone and the legacy of apocalyptic warfare lay all around.
• In Blood Omen: Legacy of Kain I turned into a swarm of bats and flew over the land, turned to mists and flitted through cracks, transformed into a werewolf and leaped great distances, or hid my vampiric nature behind a spellmask of aristocracy.
• Today in a Lone Wolf gamebook I made a daring escape from a Darlord by flying off on a giant eagle, I fought undead mounted on evil pteradactyls in the sky and was rescued by a friendly wizards flying galleon, crewed by rifle armed Dwarves.
• Even in a cheap an cheerful ARPG like Sacred I could jump on a horse and charge through enemies , jump or teleport across rivers or obstacles.
• Arcanum I rode steamtrains, booked passage on ships, flew aboard a zeppelin that was shot down by Ogre piloted bi-planes, used the Tarant Underground, teleported across the continent and was ultimately banished to the alien world of Kerghan's Void.

What do we get now as an RPG?

• Clear painted backgrounds of the fog of war by running around (or walking if the dev can be bothered to implement it) grinding trash mobs an recycling identikit crap.
  
• With an ocassional conversation, that usually has absolutely no affect on anything.
  
• No alternate means of transport.
  
• No spells that create new and alter existing gameplay, shit you're lucky if you can cast spells outside combat.
  
• If theres an interesting painted background you'll be lucky if you can interact with it in any way whatsoever.
  
• NPCs are just there to dispense exposition or provide flavour an have no life beyond most basic script. Its just fucking depressing.

Everything's streamlined and focus tested nowadays. The world design is based on ease of use like just using fast travel options on a menu rather than having to manually control the means of transport. Also like someone already mentioned earlier its difficult to write lore/ story stuff that isnt based on something already pre-existing. There's just too much stuff fighting for people's attention. If the game doesnt have some sort of comfort food familiarity it fails to get attention.

 

[Keldryn]

Complaining about modern RPGs being formulaic and unimaginative has become rather formulaic and unimaginative as well.

 

[Neanderthal]

I think a lot o this could be solved by good design if they haven't got gelt to implement properly, Arcanum wi its steam train an ships implements them features by abstracting em, Fallout 2s car is a good example as well. How many fantasy games are there where horses are mentioned all over but don't exist in game? You could do same shit as wi Highwayman, gi some benefit to travelling by horse, saved time, rations, avoid enemies* or something, an just have a stable wi steeds at journeys start and end, an in random encounters them horses standing around waiting to be remounted like Highwayman.

Poe could do this piss easy wi its illustrated narrative sections.

*Course wi way players want every feature stripping bar conversation, combat an loot recycling there'll be no need to eat, drink or sleep, time won't pass an enemies are XP to harvest so why avoid em?

 

[Telengard]

Unique settings just aren't a part of the decision-making process when people buy games. Sure, everyone talks about it like it is, but they don't ever put their money where their mouth is. They just like to talk crap.

If a game had an interesting setting but was otherwise pretty shitty, would you buy it? The answer is, of course, no. You might make your vacation plans that way, but that's not how you decide your game purchases.

If a game has a crap setting as well as being kind of all-around a bit shit, yet has a number of hot chicks and man-meat around for you to bang, would you consider buying it? Why, but of course!

And that is because pretty graphics and titillation are a part of the your decision-making process, while setting is just an optional extra. A very optional extra. Indeed, if this were not the case, games like Alien Logic would be amongst the best-selling of all time, instead of just being known for being kind of crap.

 

[IncendiaryDevice]

Unique settings just aren't a part of the decision-making process when people buy games. Sure, everyone talks about it like it is, but they don't ever put their money where their mouth is. They just like to talk crap. If a game had an interesting setting but was otherwise pretty shitty, would you buy it? The answer is, of course, no. You might make your vacation plans that way, but that's not how you decide your game purchases. If a game has a crap setting as well as being kind of all-around a bit shit, yet has a number of hot chicks and man-meat around for you to bang, would you consider buying it? Why, but of course! And that is because pretty graphics and titillation are a part of the your decision-making process, while setting is just an optional extra. A very optional extra. Indeed, if this were not the case, games like Alien Logic would be amongst the best-selling of all time, instead of just being known for being kind of crap.

You're being too vague by far. Of course people bite into new settings like starved piranhas, that's why games like Myst and Undertale flew off the shelves and why even shitty games like Spore and No Man's Sky can rope in money for old rope. It's the reason Bloodborne made Dark Souls famous, it's the reason Fallout became a never ending fixture, it's why Bioshock gets people excited. I could go on and on listing games, and it doesn't have to be graphics based. Just because there are several failures for each one that catches people's imaginations doesn't mean you can use the failures as a fact for an essay against the desire for originality. It would be far more factual to use the examples of the successes to prove that originality is actually the most profitable method of production. Like everything, the higher the risk, the higher the chance of a return alongside the higher risk of failure. Just because people who employ large numbers of people and/or have shareholders prefer to play it safer does not provide proof that the biggest general desire is originality.