Formulaic and Unimaginative Gameworlds

[CryptRat]

Voidspire Tactics, Serpent in the Staglands and Heroine's quest all have a lot of interesting puzzles and secrets involving character skills.

 

[Lilura]

Yes, I'm sure they do...

 

[ZagorTeNej]

Arcanum was an absolute freak that compares fairly well to other titles from its time, but would probably get much harsher reviews if released today. I recall that the hardcore CPRG crowd mostly spit on it at release, didn't buy it, and maybe expressed some regret later on.

If Arcanum compared "fairly well" to the games of its time then we can safely conclude it would simply decimate the competition today. The world design, quest design, reactivity (unsurpassed in that regard), character creation, itemization and crafting, atmosphere, the sheer scope and ambition of the game is something that is not even attempted today. Arcanum is not a "good for its time" title, quite the opposite, it's a game that serves as an excellent showcase for how much gaming has regressed in terms of design and creativity.

Regarding gaming journalism reviews, we're talking about publications that nearly unanimously praised Oblivion & Fallout 3 writing so forgive me If I don't take gaming reviews as an indicator of quality in the slightest.

It's troubling that the examples cited in the OP's argument don't really support his thesis all that strongly.

They support it quite strongly actually, all of the titles he listed boast creative world design and/or gameplay elements (contrasted to the sterile, creatively bankrupt products we get today) which was the point of his OP.

Can someone cite a two year period from PC gaming (esp. CRPG) history that beats out 2015-16?

Pretty much any two year period up until early-mid 2000s (when Xbawks and multiplatform releases started to suffocate the industry) will do, 2015-2016 rests solely on the shoulders of AoD and Underrail. Of course, even early 2000s yielded games like Bloodlines and Gothic 2 NOTR with the former being the last creative effort from Troika (and an absolute marvel of a game despite very troubled development on the whole) and the latter representing the pinnacle of open world ARPG design.

 

[Matalarata]

I frequently ask myself how a game like Arcanum would fare, if erased from past history and released today in this age of online wikis, guides and walkthroughs. I played the shit out of that game (maybe finished it 7-8 times over the years? Dunno...) just because the world felt so rich, full and interesting. I remember spending weeks trying to find a lead to continue the Ogres Island quest, dat feel when you meet a certain rabbit near Stillwater and the dialogue with the King of the Dwarves and the stone/shape dicotomy, which I fully disclosed only during my third or fourth playthrough.
I remember discovering how overpowered harm was only much, much later. When I could arguably breeze through 90% of combat due to sheer prior knoweledge and I still have a notebook somewhere with my "finds" regarding the altars and the offerings. Nowadays the majority of users would just google for a guide/build and try to experience as much as they could in a single playthrough, maybe playing an OP pre-built character and knowing the location of all the NPCs/altars.

I'm not saying it couldn't work or even be more succesfull nowadays, I frankly don't know. What I'm trying to say is, part of that feel is inevitably lost to the masses of players due to easy access to information. For example, when I first played torment I only had a couple of pals that owned a PC and were playing the game during the same period, but just comparing experiences, tips and discoveries, I managed to experience 95% of that game before stumbling on an in-depth guide, years later. By comparison I played Arcanum alone, no one I know irl has played it and very few ever heard of it. Years later I was still playing the shit out of it just because I had to discover everything myself, no options whatsoever but experience the game to reach conclusions and test things. And I still remember the disappointment when I combed every guide I could find (once I could find them...) just to discover that, no, there's no follow up adventure to the Ogres Island.

 

[felipepepe]

On the other hand, imagine Troika making more money due to digital distributions, surviving and releasing "Arcanum: Director's Cut" a year later...

 

[Black Angel]

Can someone cite a two year period from PC gaming (esp. CRPG) history that beats out 2015-16?

2015-2016 rests solely on the shoulders of AoD and Underrail. Of course, even early 2000s yielded games like Bloodlines and Gothic 2 NOTR with the former being the last creative effort from Troika (and an absolute marvel of a game despite very troubled development on the whole) and the latter representing the pinnacle of open world ARPG design.

oh, and Serpent in the Staglands in 2015 (though I haven't played it, so I don't know any better).

I'm actually baffled why would B0rt so boldly made such a question, especially citing out 2015-16. In 2015, AoD, Underrail, and SitS were the true Pillars of cRPG Incline, but no way in hell they've managed to beat the games cited in the previous page. Of course, I DO hope the next project by the makers of these games (Iron Tower Studio's Colony Ship RPG, Whalenought's Copper Dreams, and Styg's next project (maybe Underrail's expansion)) finally reach an 'on par' or 'better than' status, and carrying on the torch of the spirits of what makes the classics classics.

 

[V_K]

Voidspire Tactics, Serpent in the Staglands and Heroine's quest all have a lot of interesting puzzles and secrets involving character skills.

Yes, I'm sure they do...

I don't see why the irony, those three do have a fair share of interesting mechanics and interactions. The only problem is VT and HQ are fairly small games, and SitS only has enough content for a small game, which is spread thinly over a large one. Something as ambitious as U7, Krondor or RoA still remains to be made.

 

[B0rt]

Can someone cite a two year period from PC gaming (esp. CRPG) history that beats out 2015-16? I not arguing that it's impossible to do so

I asked that question because the OP's examples, aside from BaK, were very weak. Thank you to the posters that responded with a list of stronger games. However, can't 100% agree with some of the titles.

Just one of those games is worth more than everything you can cite from your shitty period.

So... you liked the first Baldur's Gate more than AoD or Underrail? Huh. Guess it might just be a matter of taste.

Gotta agree with octavius's '92-'93, that's probably my personal fav. too. Adding "The Legacy: It Has its Merits" and "Lands of Lore" seems overly generous, though. Yeah yeah I get a little nostalgic when I hear the Opinwoods theme, but take that nostalgia away and it's just a really well made Babby's First Blobber.

I guess when weighing games out I'm assigning absolutely zero points for nostalgia value, is that unfair of me?

 

[Lilura]

So... you liked the first Baldur's Gate more than AoD or Underrail? Huh. Guess it might just be a matter of taste.

It seems you like AoD and Underrail more than Fallout 2, Planescape: Torment and Jagged Alliance 2. Know what that makes you? A fucking idiot.

 

[Neanderthal]

Can someone cite a two year period from PC gaming (esp. CRPG) history that beats out 2015-16? I not arguing that it's impossible to do so

I asked that question because the OP's examples, aside from BaK, were very weak. Thank you to the posters that responded with a list of stronger games. However, can't 100% agree with some of the titles.

I'd say Bak were one o weakest examples of a gameworld wi a creative setting and interesting gameplay, it were hobbled by Feists campaign being fairly prototype fantasy in this, it were Neal Hallford's writing an his game teams design that lifted it above an beyond. Strongest example would obviously be Ultimas, massively creative an imaginative. Underworlds same wi benefit o being first 3d engine an shitting on most new 3d games in terms o what they accomplished wi it, an Labyrinth of Worlds just went crazy when it came to settings, in a good way. Arcanum is right up there next to these two wi so much unique content gameplay, an original, creative setting and amazingly brave reactivity. If you can cite stronger examples then do so.

Legacy of Kain, Sacred an Lone Wolf gamebooks I threw on list because even these are doing a better job of making interesting mechanics, gameplay an gameworlds than majority o modern RPGs.

Thinking about it I should have added Torment to list.

 

[Jack Of Owls]

Gothic 2 (I swear I'm not trolling). I enjoyed the game up until the point where I got stumped, but, um, orcs and dragons and orcs and more orcs. Ick.

 

[IncendiaryDevice]

With so many old games getting updates and enhanced whajamahoojits I don't see why whoever owns the copywrite to Troika games doesn't do a cleaner (read: less buggy) newer version of Arcanum and ToEE. It would be nice to have playable versions of these games without running a patch gauntlet.

On topic, I was watching someone play through a really shitty game today on Youtube, I was in a masochist schadenfreude mood that was satiated very nicely, but one aspect of the game did spark a sense of wonder in me with regards to this thread: How about an RPG which includes sailing down a jungle river on a small boat. Instead of trawling through tunnels and fields to get to the next area you gradually sail towards your stop-off points, Apocalypse Now style. The sailing mechanic has been very underused over the years but is a wonderful way to get a sense of exploration and wonder.

 

[Dorateen]

Gateway to the Savage Frontier had the party sailing on a river as a primary means of travel between waypoints.

 

[Neanderthal]

One o my old adventuring parties decided to cut the middle man an became merchants emsens, bought a wagon, hired guards, started travelling around like normal doing adventures an shit but also buying, selling an transporting goods. Picked up a journeyman smith, a herbalist, a sage, some others and gradually became a little village on the move, so I started basing adventures around that. Biggest pain in arse for em were guarding wagon train while they were adventuring, but a few summoned Elementals usually did trick. Characters eventually retired an became merchant prince NPCs.

 

[Lacrymas]

With so many old games getting updates and enhanced whajamahoojits I don't see why whoever owns the copywrite to Troika games doesn't do a cleaner (read: less buggy) newer version of Arcanum and ToEE. It would be nice to have playable versions of these games without running a patch gauntlet.

Aren't the IP owners of Troika's games Activision? If they are, Activision would never set aside resources to update 15-20 year old games that nobody played even then.

The answer to all of the problems discussed in this thread is getting better writers. I'm positive that there is some talented person out there willing to work on indie RPGs, so just find them. The whole "oh, but the masses like steaming piles of crap shoveled down their throats", while true, doesn't really hold water when deciding to buy a game of this genre. I doubt anybody says to themselves "wow, a new RPG in the old style, I'll only buy it if the story is generic as fuck and has no redeeming qualities!". I also doubt even Obsidian wanted to write a story which doesn't make sense and is irrelevant to its own plot, but lo! and behold, we got PoE. The answer is better writers.

I, of course, may be wrong and people write garbage on purpose because the audience completely lacks good taste and can't recognize good writing anywhere.

 

[DeepOcean]

Can someone cite a two year period from PC gaming (esp. CRPG) history that beats out 2015-16?

Do you have IWSAS?

 

[Jaesun]

Yes, Activision owns the Arcanum IP (as well as the IP for Bloodlines, not the setting). And yes, they aren't going to waste any money updating an old game.

 

[Bohrain]

In order to have more original settings, we need games designed by people who actually read history, specifically stuff that hasn't been done to death in some butchered form already, like European middle ages.
And people who do acid. Lots of acid.

 

[Popiel]

And people who do acid. Lots of acid.

You all need Michael Kirkbride.

 

[Jaesun]

The problem is companies and publishers are too scared to take risks, and play it safe most of the time.

 

[IncendiaryDevice]

In order to have more original settings, we need games designed by people who actually read history, specifically stuff that hasn't been done to death in some butchered form already, like European middle ages.
And people who do acid. Lots of acid.

Heeeey, have you been reading my CV... Damn hackers...

 

[sullynathan]

Blood Omen: Legacy of Kain

That's not an rpg

Codex is partly to blame for supporting games with bad gameplay like the witcher

 

[IncendiaryDevice]

Gateway to the Savage Frontier had the party sailing on a river as a primary means of travel between waypoints.

I haven't played that one so looked it up on Youtube. It seems similar in shipping to River of Time, in that, yes, you go by boat but you don't really ever see any boat action nor have encounters on the boats nor navigate the boat yourself ect. It's definitely an idea that exists but has never been expanded on properly for some reason.

 

[IncendiaryDevice]

Yes, Activision owns the Arcanum IP (as well as the IP for Bloodlines, not the setting). And yes, they aren't going to waste any money updating an old game.

I guess someone could buy all those rights off of them if they have lost interest in them. What they are worth and would it be worth it I've no idea, but that's what crazy overly-wealthy fans are for, right?

 

[StrongBelwas]

In order to have more original settings, we need games designed by people who actually read history, specifically stuff that hasn't been done to death in some butchered form already, like European middle ages.
And people who do acid. Lots of acid.

Be careful what you wish for, you just might get Sawyer.