For those who played Fallout 2 before playing Fallout

[1eyedking]

And saving the <s>best</s> worst for last, @VD:

:facepalm:

Is thinking frowned upon where you come from? Everything was nuked to hell in 2077. The Jet hit the streets in 2241. How much glue/paint/solvent you can find in the department stores 170 years after the war?

Jet is made out of Brahmin crap, dumbass.

Because the Fallout setting isn't a decadent, crumbling society. It's a fucking wasteland. The civilization has been wiped clean. Good riddance and all that.

What are drugs? An opportunity to make a lot of money. For whom? For chemists, for gangs, for transporters. Well, things are very different in the wasteland:

So now drugs are no longer recreational and the only point in them is in selling them. Why do people buy them? Because they're sold. Truly a genius mind, yours.

Also, weren't there junkies in The Hub? Wasn't there one that gave you a quest near the Maltese Falcon? Methinks you're glorifying your precious prequel too much, when Fallout 2 only built up on some of these themes.

1. Anyone who has a working knowledge of chemistry will make a lot more money/goods making literally priceless healing pills (painkillers, antibiotics, fever/cough medicine, etc). There is simply no reason to waste time on recreational drugs anymore, especially considering the addictive factor, which is our next point.

What the hell? It's a big wasteland with nothing to do save toil your ass for days on end or gun down whatever motherfucker comes your way so you can buy your fix and keep on flyin'. I'm sure a post-apocalyptic world would be filled with the former people, of the hard-working kind. Riiight.

2. PA communities are small. Every man counts, every pair of hands needed. In the modern societies nobody really gives a fuck that junkies, useless shite, and bored college kids use drugs. They aren't needed, to put it simply. In a PA world nobody can afford to feed a man who's fucking high all the time, a man who doesn't take care of things but has to be taken care of, a man who can spread this disease. So, I'd say there is 99% chance that anyone who's using drugs will be kicked out and die in the wasteland. A trader who brings drugs will probably be killed as a lesson to others because he weakens communities - a sin that won't be tolerated.

For your own good, stay the fuck out of post-apocalyptic settings. This is nothing but bad fanfiction. The dealer-consumer chain is still profitable since people would buy drugs anyway because not every person on Earth, post-apocalyptic or not, is a hard-working stereotype. There were lots of junkies in Fallout 1, both in the Hub as I've mentioned and in Junktown (remember the Skull gang?). They're a sad part of humanity, but a part still; there will always be people out there for the quick entertainment cash-in, as we so have presentiated in our beloved genre.

Not to mention that modern cities provide endless supply of drug-users. Who cares if 10,000 people die? There is more where they came from. In a PA world with few survivors, one can't afford to lose even a single customers, which is why making healing medicine is a much more profitable occupation for a chemist.

Drugs don't necessarily kill. In fact, Myron was experimenting on ways to lower the morbidity rate and increase the addiction potential. Also, stimpaks, as far as I can tell, were helluva expensive and you could only get Myron to make them out of Xander roots and Broc flowers which didn't grow by the thousands, while Jet was made out of mutated cow shit. Economics, VD, do you understand them?

3. Gangs. In the modern world small gangs live in abandoned buildings and shacks, while drug cartels enjoy the comfort of villas, hot chicks, swimming pools, and every possible luxury. Well, in a PA world it's either abandoned, semi-destroyed buildings or shacks. There is nothing else there. A small gang can easily take over a place like Shady Sands, having the villagers to work for them. This will be as close to luxury as it will get for a very long time. What reason would they have to look for chemists, start expensive production and test trials, establish distribution channels, ensure protection, which sounds like a major fucking headache, when they can already live like kings in Shady Sands?

For the same reason you're not a farmer: because in Shady Sands you have to toil your ass under the sun to get a decent living while you can live off the sweat of other people's backs if you have a drug "empire" under your hands. This stuff is pretty basic, man.

 

[J1M]

:facepalm:

Is thinking frowned upon where you come from? Everything was nuked to hell in 2077. The Jet hit the streets in 2241. How much glue/paint/solvent you can find in the department stores 170 years after the war?

You think that when it comes to drugs, supply precedes demand? lol
You think junkies just go clean if their favourite vice runs out? They find another, lol.
You don't think 170 years is long enough for crime families to form? lol

All of your bald assertions about "X wouldn't have enough time to form" leads me to believe that you've been playing too many fantasy games lately VD. In the real world it doesn't take 10,000 years between interesting events.

The reason jet is unrealistic has nothing to do with the mafia, but rather the complete lack of a chemical industry to supply the base ingredients for something that fancy. Weed or cocaine are not that hard to grow and process... if you become organized enough to protect the crops.

 

[1eyedking]

Surprisingly, @denizsi:

Reading all the nonsensical love and appreciation for Fallout 2, I'm really, seriously, literally surprised and dumbfucked at how, many of the same people don't seem to like Fallout 3. If you put it in a similarly certain perspective, I'm sure everything in Fallout 3 will make just as much sense, if not more.

FO3: bad C&C, bad cultural references, bad skill-stat system, very bad dialogue, bad AI, bad plot, bad ending, bad item descriptions, bad humor, bad NPCs, bad quests, bad locations, bad (no) difficulty, bad combat, bad weapons, bad voice-acting, bad...

FO2: none of that; quite the opposite.

@J1M:

The reason jet is unrealistic has nothing to do with the mafia, but rather the complete lack of a chemical industry to supply the base ingredients for something that fancy.

{740}{myn114a}{Couldn't grow coca plants, opium poppies -- and man did we try -- so we figured our best bet was shrooms. }
{742}{myn114c}{You can grow 'em if you use plenty o' brahmin shit as fertilizer.}
{843}{player}{So you used brahmin shit as fertilizer for the shrooms, except the pre-war protein contamination gives whatever shrooms grown in brahmin shit�certain extra ingredients?}
{851}{myn124b}{See, we start experimenting with the brahmin shit as fertilizer for the shrooms, except get this; then, we noticed the slaves working fertilizer vats were getting high from the fumes}
{861}{myn125b}{By putting tons of brahmin shit in the vats, we found out that the fumes give more than enough of a kick. Eureka. Literally. 'Course, we had to test to get the mix right}

JET IS BRAHMIN CRAP FUMES

Jesus, it's not that hard to get.

 

[Gragt]

Oooh, fun!

Of course. Behavior in vaults was highly adhocratic, with no organizational structure whatsoever and no need for maintenance and management.

Bit of a strawman, there. The keyword is excessive bureaucracy, which appears only when a certain level of complexity in the administration is reached. Of course the Vaults are organised with some form of management and hierarchy, procedures to follow, etc. But it's on a basic level, because it doesn't need to be more than that.

How some people are able to miss the point so completely is beyond me.

Me too.

Sounds like they were a really disorganized bunch, and had no need for rules and standardized processes. No sir, none of that.

Strawman again. I said they have a simple type of hierarchy, which is different from being simplistic and disorganised.

Goddamit son, do you even know what bureaucracy means?

Do you, kiddo?

Some guys outside get sad if one or the other gets killed in the Kung-Fu sidequest. Big deal. And by central I guess you mean the fight takes place on the center of the map, right?

Well, the ring is kind of a central location! It's also the first thing you see when you enter the town by the main road and the main concern of all the citizens in the area when you talk to them. It's not an important quest in the totality of the game, but gives the colour to the area.

Hubologists have a big area. So?

So they're a bit more than a simple comical hyperbole like, say, the TARDIS or Godzilla's footprint in a random encounter in the middle of the wastes.

Yes, let us forget that filthy Gizmo from Fallout 1.

Gizmo, and also Decker in The Hub, are not on the same level as the New Reno mobsters. They are petty local thugs that prey on the population but need to hide from the Law. The Fallout 2 mobsters have connections in the different cities, large bases of operations and operate pretty much in view of everyone.

A couple of funny quotes here and there, some enslavement, and pretty much nothing else. It's clear their primitive ways played an important role in the whole of the game

Again some dishonesty or lack of reading comprehension on your part: I replied to your claim that tribals are almost never mentionned again after you leave Arroyo by pointing some exemples out, and you make it appear as if I said they play an important role in the whole game.

I won't bother with this.

I kinda expected that.

Travelling through air and water doesn't sound as crazy as LCD screens and 80000 megaton explosions.

Maybe for 21st Century blasé kid, not so much for someone who lived a few centuries ago and could anticipate, sometimes with respectable accuracy, the principle of things he anticipated.

Ever read those dumb magazines that said that by the 21st century we would be living on Mars and the Earth would be a smoldering hole of pollution with people wearing gas-masks all the time?

My exemples were a bit different on the cultural ladder, but even then, why not? Some cities are already smoldering holes of pollution with people wearing masks most of the time.

Yes, the very same people that built wells, clay houses, and could produce poison antidotes. Clearly, stuff like what you've mentioned wasn't for color.

They aren't morons but hardly the peak of technology in the wastes, a sad state of affairs when you consider they come from Vault 15.

I still look posh with my monocle.

 

[1eyedking]

Bit of a strawman, there. The keyword is excessive bureaucracy, which appears only when a certain level of complexity in the administration is reached. Of course the Vaults are organised with some form of management and hierarchy, procedures to follow, etc. But it's on a basic level, because it doesn't need to be more than that.

Thank you for pointing out the hyperbole and rationalizing videogames to the point where not even all of FO1's information is enough. Cite some sources, kid. I at least quoted the Overseer, and I could bring some other fellows from Vault City along if you want.

Strawman again. I said they have a simple type of hierarchy, which is different from being simplistic and disorganised.

We all know "strawman" is a buzzword in the Codex, Gragt. Cool points and all that shit, I guess. So, after all I've said you still think they're simplistic? At least give me reasons, not this kind of "No U" response.

Well, the ring is kind of a central location! It's also the first thing you see when you enter the town by the main road and the main concern of all the citizens in the area when you talk to them. It's not an important quest in the totality of the game, but gives the colour to the area.

Yes. And then they go around saying stuff about rice and funny looking eyes. Derp.

So they're a bit more than a simple comical hyperbole like, say, the TARDIS or Godzilla's footprint in a random encounter in the middle of the wastes.

This is true, but still doesn't play the importance a location such as Vault City does, or NCR. They're there to poke some collateral fun at scientologists.

Gizmo, and also Decker in The Hub, are not on the same level as the New Reno mobsters. They are petty local thugs that prey on the population but need to hide from the Law. The Fallout 2 mobsters have connections in the different cities, large bases of operations and operate pretty much in view of everyone.

Gizmo and Decker were 80 years behind the Mordinos, Bishops, Salvatores, and Wrights. Wasn't there an alternate ending for Junktown wherein Gizmo prospered and made the town flourish into a "trade-center" for his own self-serving reasons?

And also wasn't Al Capone a local mobster who operated pretty much in view of everyone, "satisfying public demand" as he himself said in newspaper interviews?

Again some dishonesty or lack of reading comprehension on your part: I replied to your claim that tribals are almost never mentionned again after you leave Arroyo by pointing some exemples out, and you make it appear as if I said they play an important role in the whole game.

I haven't misread you, however you're right here because I should have made myself clearer and have stated what I said now, but then.

Maybe for 21st Century blasé kid, not so much for someone who lived a few centuries ago and could anticipate, sometimes with respectable accuracy, the principle of things he anticipated.

My exemples were a bit different on the cultural ladder, but even then, why not? Some cities are already smoldering holes of pollution with people wearing masks most of the time.

MONOCLE DETECTED

Ehem. People such as Napoleon wouldn't believe ironclads were possible, so I guess my idea is not that far-fetched. Is Napoleon monoclean enough for you?

They aren't morons but hardly the peak of technology in the wastes, a sad state of affairs when you consider they come from Vault 15.

Just give them 80 years and good leadership:

New California Republic

Prerequisites: Aradesh and Tandi are alive.

In Shady Sands, Tandi helps her father Aradesh bring a new community and new life out of the broken remains of the world. They are responsible for the New California Republic, whose ideals spread across the land.

From the Fallout 1 ending.

 

[denizsi]

FO3: bad C&C, bad cultural references, bad AI, bad plot, bad ending, bad humor, bad locations, bad weapons

^These are, in my opinion, some of the common traits of F2 and F3. Equally bad cultural references in both and so much so that one has an entire faction dedicated to them, bad AI (that only substitutes that fact with superior firepower and skills in a working stat system in F2), what I consider to be a bad plot if not simply because it is a cheesed out l0llercoaster rehash of the first game and that goes for both F2 & F3, bad humour in both where it often reminds me of Codex in F2 and ESF in F3; other than the shit weapons in F3 (fatman and a few others), bad weapons in both as in an insane weapon overkill, more stuff than you can possibly need. I can't call the ending in either as necessarily bad but since you call the one in F3 bad, I think the one in F2 also needs to be called bad. Personally, I think they were similarly dull and uninteresting, except F2 was more creative.

FO2: none of that; quite the opposite.

My own impressions tell me otherwise.

 

[1eyedking]

These are, in my opinion, some of the common traits of F2 and F3.

Please expand and justify.

 

[denizsi]

Did, please see my edited post.

 

[Sander]

@Sander:

No, he said he didn't want to work on a Fallout 2 at that point in time, and he said that Planescape: Torment had a pretty linear story and put you in the place of a certain character but was otherwise completely awesome. Which it did.

But when we were done with Fallout, I was kind of tired of that genre. I didn't want to do Fallout 2.

[...]

I liked Planescape: Torment a lot, but the biggest complaint I gave Chris Avellone, even before it shipped, was I really hate the fact that you're giving me just one person, and I can't play anything else.

Someone just asked me recently why I don't like what they call the "Eastern-style" of RPG, like Final Fantasy . And I think that was one of my biggest complaints. I feel too constrained. To be given a character and play it the way the designers expected me to play through.

Sounds clear enough to me, son.

So ehm, what part of that exactly disagrees with me?

New Reno isn't prosperous. I don't know where did you get that crazy idea, it's just a backwater city full of prostitution, delinquency and vice. And as far as I know there are a lot of caravans moving around the wastes, and it's not like the Mordinos wouldn't trade their drugs with other non-mentioned locales and farms. I mean, wouldn't you sometimes find farms when stopping in the middle of nowhere in the world map? It's not like the big green circle locations are the only places with people, you know.

And if by richest man alive means living in a pre-war crumbling casino with a bunch of junkie guards as bodyguards and lots of cheap hookers, then yes, my friend, New Reno kingpins were very rich (definitely beats being a Modoc farmer, though).

So your argument is that crime families that deal with the Enclave for laser weapons, and actively spend a lot of money and resources trying to kill other crime families just to control the drug trade, are actually vying over something that isn't worth all that much?

Yeah, that doesn't make it any better.

This can be debunked by pointing you to Gizmo in Fallout 1, the 80 years deal, and what I and others have said before.

Gizmo is in a completely different style from New Reno, and also not involved in a family v family war. So that's hardly comparable. The '80 years deal' doesn't explain how they overcome fundamental problems.

But, more importantly, Junktown isn't a town running on gambling and drugs. It's a full-fledged village that has a casino in it.

 

[Gragt]

Thank you for pointing out the hyperbole and rationalizing videogames to the point where not even all of FO1's information is enough. Cite some sources, kid. I at least quoted the Overseer, and I could bring some other fellows from Vault City along if you want.

Simply citing some bit of dialog won't magically strenghten your position, not when the bits you used do not show that the Vault makes an excessive use of bureaucracy, which I believe was the point of this argument. You showed that the Vault follows procedures, and then? I did not even challenge that, "kid".

We all know "strawman" is a buzzword in the Codex, Gragt. Cool points and all that shit, I guess.

Weaksauce. If you do not like my accusations, then treat my arguments the way I present them, without making me say what I do not.

So, after all I've said you still think they're simplistic? At least give me reasons, not this kind of "No U" response.

You even gave the reasons, which is even more funny: they are organised around a hierarchy, follow procedures, have a council of elders that manages things on a large level, etc. All in all an effective organisation and nothing shows that they are hampered by an excess of bureaucracy. You should also read what I said: the way the BoS is organised simple, not simplistic.

Yes. And then they go around saying stuff about rice and funny looking eyes. Derp.

Damn gooks.

This is true, but still doesn't play the importance a location such as Vault City does, or NCR. They're there to poke some collateral fun at scientologists.

Not as important as VC, yes. But you are likely to spend some time there, scientologist satire or not. I even forgot there is another hubologist in NCR that helps to give them some place in the world.

Gizmo and Decker were 80 years behind the Mordinos, Bishops, Salvatores, and Wrights. Wasn't there an alternate ending for Junktown wherein Gizmo prospered and made the town flourish into a "trade-center" for his own self-serving reasons?

80 years behind would still qualify as "not being in the same league". That Junktown ending was scraped, though it could have been fun to see. Even then, what's the point? It's doesn't fit the same description as New Reno.

And also wasn't Al Capone a local mobster who operated pretty much in view of everyone, "satisfying public demand" as he himself said in newspaper interviews?

What exactly do you mean?

Ehem. People such as Napoleon wouldn't believe ironclads were possible, so I guess my idea is not that far-fetched. Is Napoleon monoclean enough for you?

You'll always have visionaries, that will influence others, and there will always be people who won't follow them. No one will manage to predict the future — unless you are called Cleve — but some can see some aspects of it coming on a technical or social level. Simply because Napoleon did not believe something was possible doesn't invalidate this, else I guess no progress would ever be done.

Just give them 80 years and good leadership:

New California Republic

Prerequisites: Aradesh and Tandi are alive.

In Shady Sands, Tandi helps her father Aradesh bring a new community and new life out of the broken remains of the world. They are responsible for the New California Republic, whose ideals spread across the land.

From the Fallout 1 ending.

It says they are responsible for the NCR, but it doesn't go farther beyond that. The first time I got this ending, it felt to me that Tandi and Aradesh planted the seeds of what would later grow and blossom into the NCR, not actually create the whole thing and lead it themselves. A bit the same how Charlemagne is now seen as being responsible for Europe. Anyway I said before that I consider the NCR as one of the lesser problems with the setting because I can accept the idea of Tandi becoming an extraordinary leader and uniting some towns under one banner, especially when placed next to New Reno or Vault City, even if they seem too advanced considering their humble origins.

 

[Secretninja]

Hay gais, listen to 1eyedking. He is the chosen one, and invented a time machine to come back and tell us how it really is in PA Cali.

 

[Forest Dweller]

By that same logic you could say that VD discovered a portal to the otherworld, the land of not-being, where it was shown to him what CANNOT exist.

 

[J1M]

@J1M:

The reason jet is unrealistic has nothing to do with the mafia, but rather the complete lack of a chemical industry to supply the base ingredients for something that fancy.

{740}{myn114a}{Couldn't grow coca plants, opium poppies -- and man did we try -- so we figured our best bet was shrooms. }
{742}{myn114c}{You can grow 'em if you use plenty o' brahmin shit as fertilizer.}
{843}{player}{So you used brahmin shit as fertilizer for the shrooms, except the pre-war protein contamination gives whatever shrooms grown in brahmin shit�certain extra ingredients?}
{851}{myn124b}{See, we start experimenting with the brahmin shit as fertilizer for the shrooms, except get this; then, we noticed the slaves working fertilizer vats were getting high from the fumes}
{861}{myn125b}{By putting tons of brahmin shit in the vats, we found out that the fumes give more than enough of a kick. Eureka. Literally. 'Course, we had to test to get the mix right}

JET IS BRAHMIN CRAP FUMES

Jesus, it's not that hard to get.

Lay off the caps, son.

My only mistake was assuming VD was not being misleading/flat out wrong when he claimed it was super complicated to discover, make, and test jet. Clearly they didn't need a great chemist to make a new drug. That falls in line exactly with what I was saying.

You've brought some good information from a primary source in this thread, but I just can't read those quotathon posts. They come off as way too petty no matter who is doing them.

 

[Ovplain]

Played Fallout 2 before Fallout 1, enjoyed Fallout 1 more than Fallout 2 I suppose. Still, I don't mind replaying them both almost yearly.

 

[Sander]

Lay off the caps, son.

My only mistake was assuming VD was not being misleading/flat out wrong when he claimed it was super complicated to discover, make, and test jet. Clearly they didn't need a great chemist to make a new drug. That falls in line exactly with what I was saying.

You've brought some good information from a primary source in this thread, but I just can't read those quotathon posts. They come off as way too petty no matter who is doing them.

Whether or not they need to go through a lot of shit to discover Jet - they did go through a lot of trouble to discover Jet.
No, you don't need a chemist to get shit fumes. But they went through a lot of different options for which they did use chemists before actually getting to shit fumes.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Jet is made out of Brahmin crap, dumbass.

Picked up new arguments while you were recuperating? Dumbass? A promising start. I almost choked on tears when I read it.

Now, I'd love to discuss your mental shortcoming, which are quite numerous, unfortunately, but I think it would be better if we try to avoid personal attacks. Your choice.

You think that when it comes to drugs, supply precedes demand? lol
You think junkies just go clean if their favourite vice runs out? They find another, lol.
You don't think 170 years is long enough for crime families to form? lol

lol? That's your argument? Been taking lessons from One-Eye, have you?

All of your bald assertions about "X wouldn't have enough time to form" leads me to believe that you've been playing too many fantasy games lately VD. In the real world it doesn't take 10,000 years between interesting events.

What the fuck are "interesting events" and how do they support your "it's not a fantasy world!" point?

Our history is at least 5,500 years old. The fucking wheel appeared around 3,500 BC. It took us only 3,000 years to make a simple printing press, but I'm sure that if we REALLY have to, we can rebuild our civilization in 200 years or so.

My only mistake was assuming VD was not being misleading/flat out wrong when he claimed it was super complicated to discover, make, and test jet.

Claimed? Where? You were the one who claimed that Jet was a complicated drug (see your previous post):

"The reason jet is unrealistic has nothing to do with the mafia, but rather the complete lack of a chemical industry to supply the base ingredients for something that fancy."

My point was that there was no reason to make drugs to begin with and go through all the hassle and considerate initial expenses. The Jet was easy to make ONCE they figured out what to do, but they didn't stumble on it by accident.

http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Jet

"When Myron first encountered the Mordinos, they were farming peyote cacti and trying to sell it to tourists as the “Reno Experience”. Unfortunately, as Myron explains, peyote trips are too long and profit is generated by fast turnaround and a high addiction rate. Furthermore, the climate was far too ravaged and irradiated to grow most vegetable matter but the hardiest of plants, so Myron began delving in growing mushrooms. Hallucinogens have low overhead and thrive in plentiful brahmin dung. From there, Myron began experimenting with derivatives of lysergic acid diethylamide, psilocybin and THC; the active substance in marijuana (unknown to still grow). However, the Mordinos still desired something a little harder and more addictive..."

 

[Vault Dweller]

Because the Fallout setting isn't a decadent, crumbling society. It's a fucking wasteland. The civilization has been wiped clean. Good riddance and all that.

What are drugs? An opportunity to make a lot of money. For whom? For chemists, for gangs, for transporters. Well, things are very different in the wasteland:

So now drugs are no longer recreational and the only point in them is in selling them. Why do people buy them? Because they're sold. Truly a genius mind, yours.

Because when one can't buy drugs, one makes his own! Yes, I realize that one can sniff glue and all that, but we aren't talking about degenerates, but about normal people who buy recreational drugs because - gasp - drugs are available. Same with booze.

I like drinking, but if the prohibition rears its ugly head again, it will cut down my drinking by 90%.

Also, weren't there junkies in The Hub? Wasn't there one that gave you a quest near the Maltese Falcon? Methinks you're glorifying your precious prequel too much, when Fallout 2 only built up on some of these themes.

Fallout is neither The Perfect Game (TM) nor my "precious prequel". It has its share of flaws, but it's a much better, more consistent and logical game than Fallout 2 or 3.

1. Anyone who has a working knowledge of chemistry will make a lot more money/goods making literally priceless healing pills (painkillers, antibiotics, fever/cough medicine, etc). There is simply no reason to waste time on recreational drugs anymore, especially considering the addictive factor, which is our next point.

What the hell? It's a big wasteland with nothing to do save toil your ass for days on end or gun down whatever motherfucker comes your way so you can buy your fix and keep on flyin'. I'm sure a post-apocalyptic world would be filled with the former people, of the hard-working kind. Riiight.

Because the wasteland is a friendly and forgiving place, and your number one concern is getting high. How old are you again?

All kinds of people would survive an nuclear apocalypse. Most won't live longer than a few weeks though.

2. PA communities are small. Every man counts, every pair of hands needed. In the modern societies nobody really gives a fuck that junkies, useless shite, and bored college kids use drugs. They aren't needed, to put it simply. In a PA world nobody can afford to feed a man who's fucking high all the time, a man who doesn't take care of things but has to be taken care of, a man who can spread this disease. So, I'd say there is 99% chance that anyone who's using drugs will be kicked out and die in the wasteland. A trader who brings drugs will probably be killed as a lesson to others because he weakens communities - a sin that won't be tolerated.

For your own good, stay the fuck out of post-apocalyptic settings. This is nothing but bad fanfiction. The dealer-consumer chain is still profitable since people would buy drugs anyway because not every person on Earth, post-apocalyptic or not, is a hard-working stereotype.

You imply that there is a choice. Work hard or do drugs. Hmm... decisions, decisions... You either work hard and live or don't work hard and die.

...there will always be people out there for the quick entertainment cash-in...

And what would they offer in return? They produce nothing and have no money. We are no longer in the modern and caring society, remember?

3. Gangs. In the modern world small gangs live in abandoned buildings and shacks, while drug cartels enjoy the comfort of villas, hot chicks, swimming pools, and every possible luxury. Well, in a PA world it's either abandoned, semi-destroyed buildings or shacks. There is nothing else there. A small gang can easily take over a place like Shady Sands, having the villagers to work for them. This will be as close to luxury as it will get for a very long time. What reason would they have to look for chemists, start expensive production and test trials, establish distribution channels, ensure protection, which sounds like a major fucking headache, when they can already live like kings in Shady Sands?

For the same reason you're not a farmer: because in Shady Sands you have to toil your ass under the sun to get a decent living while you can live off the sweat of other people's backs if you have a drug "empire" under your hands. This stuff is pretty basic, man.

I'm not a farmer because I have other choices. If the world goes kaboom, my choices will be vastly reduced and I'll probably stick with growing shit I can eat and hopefully trade.

My point, which you obviously missed, was that a small gang with weapons can easily take over a small village like Shady Sands and live off the "sweat of other people's backs", which would be historically accurate, btw. They don't need to do lengthy drug research, set up labs, manufacture, and distribution chains. They wouldn't have to worry about a shitload of things. Basically, the choice would boil down to:

- do we take over Shady Sands with a lot of hard work (managing a "let's make drugs!" project won't be easy) and upfront costs, and end up with a village of junkies - not the most hard working and reliable class - OR -

- do we just take it over now and live like kings?

Like I said, the logic behind drugs simply isn't there.

 

[FeelTheRads]

What the hell? It's a big wasteland with nothing to do save toil your ass for days on end or gun down whatever motherfucker comes your way so you can buy your fix and keep on flyin'.

Jesus jumping Christ... your knowledge of how people function is zero, my dear NoBrainedKing.

Yeah, fuck it, the world is ruined, what am I gonna do? Just sit around...maybe food will drop from the sky.

...

 

[J1M]

I wasn't aware that the nukes wiped out everyone's memory of what the wheel was. You'll have to forward me your fan fiction VD.

What exactly is your point with jet? They didn't need a chemist to make it. That they hired one for failed experiments prior is irrelevant.

 

[denizsi]

My point, which you obviously missed, was that a small gang with weapons can easily take over a small village like Shady Sands and live off the "sweat of other people's backs", which would be historically accurate

In before someone comes up with "oh rly? who are these PA people who survived a nuclear wasteland and then took over weaker communities, and just when did that happen?"

I think J1M might just ask that literally. He has the potential.

 

[Sander]

I wasn't aware that the nukes wiped out everyone's memory of what the wheel was. You'll have to forward me your fan fiction VD.

What exactly is your point with jet? They didn't need a chemist to make it. That they hired one for failed experiments prior is irrelevant.

What? No it isn't. It's very relevant.

If the point had been 'everyone gets high off of brahmin fumes', there wouldn't have been huge crime families and drug wars. What happened instead was extensive chemical research, to then stumble across the miracle cure. Which everyone then starts warring over.

 

[Vault Dweller]

I wasn't aware that the nukes wiped out everyone's memory of what the wheel was.

Was that the point, my dear J1M? That inventing wheel is teh hard? Yes, simple things will be reintroduced quickly. What about more complex things? What about re-inventing the printing press? How easy is it going to be? Or building a power generator? Or making gauss guns? If you can make things like that, then I would definitely want you in my party when the bombs start falling.

What exactly is your point with jet?

May I recommend this?

 

[Chefe]

Wouldn't it be cool if people argued this passionately for Betrayal at Krondor or Darklands? Arcanum? No, it's all about a broken game that can be completed in under an hour and had a bunch of shitty sequels. Sigh...

 

[J1M]

I wasn't aware that the nukes wiped out everyone's memory of what the wheel was.

Was that the point, my dear J1M? That inventing wheel is teh hard? Yes, simple things will be reintroduced quickly. What about more complex things? What about re-inventing the printing press? How easy is it going to be? Or building a power generator? Or making gauss guns? If you can make things like that, then I would definitely want you in my party when the bombs start falling.

Refined raw materials are going to be way harder to get your hands on than the knowledge of how to put them together. But maybe I feel that way because I know that's the situation I personally would be in.

 

[Chefe]

Wouldn't it be cool if people argued this passionately for Betrayal at Krondor or Darklands? Arcanum? No, it's all about a broken game that can be completed in under an hour and had a bunch of shitty sequels. Sigh...

Pathetic troll is pathetic. I would reply more, but I'm not going to waste keyboard buttons on you.

Oh right I forgot if someone doesn't say "OH MY GOD FALLOUT IS DEEP N SHIT" they're a troll. My bad. Fallout lore cannot even hold a candle to Elder Scrolls lore (pre Oblivion, mind you).