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Fallout FO2 mod - EcCo (gameplay overhaul for Restoration Project)

Pope Amole II

Nerd Commando Game Studios
Developer
Joined
Mar 1, 2012
Messages
2,052
Looks like weaponized autism. The list of changes really, really looks like utter shit. I especially like the "pistols have to shoot faster, that's what they are for" - yeah, kid, those pistols are definitely shooting faster than SMGs and assault rifle, that's what they fucking are for.

Fucking geeks.
 

canakin

Cipher
Joined
May 15, 2011
Messages
422
> TRAPS:
- to use traps you need to craft a Trap Kit first (need explosive schematics for mines and electronics for sensor mine)
- then, put trap in your active hand slot and use it ON your character (or just press Ctrl+1 hotkey) - it will place trap on the ground below (not yet armed)
- use Traps skill on trap to arm it.

What a fucking load of shit.

> NEW QUEST CONTENT:
- craft learning (see "crafting" section)
- one of the trappers in Klamath can now teach you gecko skinning (not free)
- kill groups of robbers near Redding
- hunt down several rogues throughout the wastelend, one-by-one (NCR)
- bring a number of hides to Modoc tannery
- bring a number of tentacles to NCR doctor

I refuse to believe somewhere, someone thought "Yeah Fallout is cool and shit but it could really benefit from Korean MMORPG quest design."
 
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Jimmious

Arcane
Patron
Joined
May 18, 2015
Messages
5,132
Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
I was mainly looking for something that will make the economy a bit more "realistic" or "challenging". So that you need to keep hold of crappier equipment for a longer time. But yeah some of the changes in there look really bad, that's why I'm asking if anyone tried the mod
 
Joined
Jan 7, 2012
Messages
15,254
The idea of adjusting the economy is... I dunno. It's generally alright in FO2 if you aren't trying to abuse it. Making it significantly harder and then adding dumb time wasters to make money is dumb.

Looks like weaponized autism. The list of changes really, really looks like utter shit. I especially like the "pistols have to shoot faster, that's what they are for" - yeah, kid, those pistols are definitely shooting faster than SMGs and assault rifle, that's what they fucking are for.

Makes some sense if we assume that we're aiming and firing together. Problem is that Fallout doesn't separate out all parts of firing a gun like, say, Jagged Alliance (where you spend AP to first point the gun, more if you want to aim it, then more for each pull of the trigger, with the pistols being very quick for part 1 but no faster or even slower for parts 2/3). Starting pistols are so shit that it's probably a decent buff, you can barely take out rats with them.

But then he removes the Bonus ROF perk because pistols become OP with it... lol? I don't think he thought that argument through since there already were revolvers and the gauss pistol that have 4 AP shots. I don't think anyone considered those overpowered. Sure, 3 shots to the eyes if you have 12 AP, slightly better at fishing for instakill crits than rifles, but not much else.
 

YES!

Hi, I'm Roqua
Dumbfuck
Joined
Feb 26, 2017
Messages
2,088
Makes some sense if we assume that we're aiming and firing together.

I disagree. If this where true pistols would be used for room clearing instead of rifles/carbines. The only benefit pistols have is they are small and easily carried/concealed. They make good backup weapons if you are a machine gunner. I honestly can't think of a single situation where I would say, "Gee, I'm glad I had this pistol instead of a carbine with collapsible stock. The range is superior, control, aiming, handling, ammo capacity, reloading - rifles/carbines are always better unless you suck and have little training in which case an SMG may be better if in close range without good cover.

A game can't have diversity and realism. This is a game where it is possible to make really strong melee builds. That shit might work in movies or anime but come on. Also, keep in mind you can get shot like 80 times and live and suck on some broc flower mix to heal up nice and good in a few seconds. And giant radscorpion monsters. Games aren't meant to make realistic sense. We play them to escape from reality and go to a world where we can take bullets and duel wield pistols and wear football armor with spikes. In games pistols need to have a benefit to make them not just a shit choice for baddies. Like using a pistol and shield, or pistols using less AP, or getting a perk that allows duel wielding pistols to crit a lot and whatever is needed to make them viable. Please keep in mind I never said balanced, because balance and fair are for kids and retards.
 
Joined
Jan 7, 2012
Messages
15,254
Makes some sense if we assume that we're aiming and firing together.

I disagree. If this where true pistols would be used for room clearing instead of rifles/carbines. The only benefit pistols have is they are small and easily carried/concealed. They make good backup weapons if you are a machine gunner. I honestly can't think of a single situation where I would say, "Gee, I'm glad I had this pistol instead of a carbine with collapsible stock. The range is superior, control, aiming, handling, ammo capacity, reloading - rifles/carbines are always better unless you suck and have little training in which case an SMG may be better if in close range without good cover.

That's an instance in which you are already prepared with the weapon in a ready position. If we're talking a weapon at your side, the pistol is going to be faster. The SMG would be close though. Think a wild west shootout-type encounter. Trying to use a rifle would be way to slow.

Thing is, Fallout is sort of designed so that most guns are only fired once per round with movement inbetween (See: 90% of NPCs), so it still makes sense that we're charging the full AP cost for going through the process of raising the weapon again. It's only with PC characters who max agility and take perks to let them fire 4-8x a round that it makes no sense why the pistols are significantly faster than rifles.

A game can't have diversity and realism. This is a game where it is possible to make really strong melee builds. That shit might work in movies or anime but come on. Also, keep in mind you can get shot like 80 times and live and suck on some broc flower mix to heal up nice and good in a few seconds. And giant radscorpion monsters. Games aren't meant to make realistic sense. We play them to escape from reality and go to a world where we can take bullets and duel wield pistols and wear football armor with spikes. In games pistols need to have a benefit to make them not just a shit choice for baddies. Like using a pistol and shield, or pistols using less AP, or getting a perk that allows duel wielding pistols to crit a lot and whatever is needed to make them viable. Please keep in mind I never said balanced, because balance and fair are for kids and retards.

Yeah, I totally agree with this. Not making an argument that Fallout should be realistic or balanced, just that faster pistols can be interpreted as realistically quicker for single shots.
 
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YES!

Hi, I'm Roqua
Dumbfuck
Joined
Feb 26, 2017
Messages
2,088
That's an instance in which you are already prepared with the weapon in a ready position. If we're talking a weapon at your side, the pistol is going to be faster. The SMG would be close though. Think a wild west shootout-type encounter. Trying to use a rifle would be way to slow.

Thing is, Fallout is sort of designed so that most guns are only fired once per round with movement inbetween (See: 90% of NPCs), so it still makes sense that we're charging the full AP cost for going through the process of raising the weapon again. It's only with PC characters who max agility and take perks to let them fire 4-8x a round that it makes no sense why the pistols are significantly faster than rifles.

Most rifles are carried and ready to be brought the small distance to shoulder. And in games, especially FO and its setting, I doubt they would be slung. Even if resting on an ammo pouch with one hand I honestly would always prefer to have a rifle and go up against a pistol user, or just have a rifle in any and all situations without any exceptions I can think of. And in your example, even though I disagree, the advantage would only be for the first and only the first round fired.

Also, and I'm sure this can be adjusted, but most handguns seem to require higher pressure to fire than any rifle I've shot. This could not be true because I'm not very familiar with handguns but most gunners are bigger but our AG and AB (on the rare occasions we had enough people for 3 man gun teams) weren't always bigger, and the smaller the person was the looser their shot grouping when we had to qualify (which was honestly the only time we ever fired handguns, and only officers and gun teams qualify in a light infantry platoon. Besides the mortar section of HQ platoon). A rifle has a stock allowing you to have a pretty solid grip on it and pulling the trigger doesn't jerk the weapon. Hand guns jerk if you don't have larger hands and stronger wrists, and even when you do it still jerks a little. I honestly don't think the overwhelming majority of people will ever be nearly as accurate or precise with a handgun firing without the sights, or even with a laser site, at close quarters or any range. You just have way better control with a rifle.

But, maybe if I was a cop or some profession that had way more experience with a handgun over rifle/carbines I'd disagree. I know for certain at any range over 50 meters I always put my money on the guy with a rifle over the guy with a handgun. Also, police swat teams and the best military men don't use handguns as a primary weapon. If there was any actual advantage you would figure you'd see some high profile profession using them in real life in the situations where their short range make their use feasible.
 

tindrli

Arcane
Joined
Jan 5, 2011
Messages
4,477
Location
Dragodol
I was mainly looking for something that will make the economy a bit more "realistic" or "challenging". So that you need to keep hold of crappier equipment for a longer time. But yeah some of the changes in there look really bad, that's why I'm asking if anyone tried the mod

well try it and post us what you think
 

Jimmious

Arcane
Patron
Joined
May 18, 2015
Messages
5,132
Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
I was mainly looking for something that will make the economy a bit more "realistic" or "challenging". So that you need to keep hold of crappier equipment for a longer time. But yeah some of the changes in there look really bad, that's why I'm asking if anyone tried the mod

well try it and post us what you think
My time is limited tbh and in order to evaluate a mod like that, I guess I'd at least need to play 10-15 hours. If it sucks and I want to restart then it's 10-15 precious hours gone in the wind :negative:

But I might I'm still not sure 100% :P
 

tindrli

Arcane
Joined
Jan 5, 2011
Messages
4,477
Location
Dragodol
crap... always the time... and i wonder why the fuck i spend so much configuring rolling choosing chars. sometimes even more than playing the damn game
 

Nevill

Arcane
Joined
Jun 6, 2009
Messages
11,211
Shadorwun: Hong Kong
My time is limited tbh and in order to evaluate a mod like that, I guess I'd at least need to play 10-15 hours.
Nah, you'll see the results in Den where you can't buy shit despite having tons of junk for sale. Gecko pelts still sell for $25/$125 apiece, so they become one of the most valued loot at the beginning.

I've played with it back in 2014, it was pretty decent (enough so that I stopped playing without it) and didn't have all that many features. I think the traps were introduced shortly after, but seeing how the skill is absolute trash in vanilla I think anything that lets a player use it is an improvement. Didn't bother much with them anyway besides hunting geckos in Klamath. Overhauling Barter and Throwing was also long overdue.

Most of the changes in guns didn't bother me either - it makes some intuitive sense choosing between fast pistols with lower range and damage, or slower but more powerful rifles. I was much more bothered by changing Bozar into a sniper rifle and redoing some of the encounter tables to account for the fact, but knowing a thing or two about mods I just reverted the changes whenever I didn't like them.

Damage formula in vanilla never made much sense, which is evident by half-a-dozen attempts to remake it entirely. I think this particular attempt isn't bad at all.
 
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Lujo

Augur
Joined
Mar 3, 2014
Messages
242
I happened to work on the mod, and while it's a mixed bag, if it still comes with the ability to disable features it's probably the best one out there.

It sort of has 3 kinds of features:

1) Gameflow fixes that make the progression not fall apart after GECKO. They're very small, and are basically stuff that would've just been patched post-release if the game was made later or wouldn't even be needed if the game wasn't rushed (simple but thorough playtesting would've alerted the devs to the issues they fix). All they do is make it so that if you go in blind and just follow the natural progression, stuff like ending up in NCR before you get to New Reno and then arriving at New Reno in Power Armor trivializing the midgame doesn't happen. You can still just go wherever whenever and do whatever, ofc, but this way you can give it to someone who's never played it and if they just follow where the game prompts them to go and do everything in every town, shit won't mysteriously break down at one point. They's so small you might not even notice most of them, but their impact is huge, beneficial, and makes the game actually play out the way it seems to want to play out.

Mostly it's just:

- The scouting missions in VC that send you to Gecko and the to NCR have an additional quest between those two, which is scout around Broken Hills and report. This way you get involved with the whole VC-New Reno thing, which is supposed to be the midgame, at the right time, instead of skipping straight to NCR where you get thousands of XP just for talking to people and mad loot ahead of time. Small change, you may not even remember it not being like this always, but it'll suddenly make the whole game work better than it ever did, guaranteed. If you could get the "mod" but disable everything else except this one single fix, and just play the game straight with no intentional sequence-skipping, you'd still come out with a sense that it never worked better.
- Some minor changes to the layout of the Raider base because since the other thing fixes the midgame, you get to actually play the midgame at the right time, and you're more likely to find the raiders through a questline than just run into the place, shoot it up, and end up with so much loot and ammo that you break the game without realizing it. I bet most people didn't even know the place has two entrances, simply because the screwup I outlined above.
- Some more stuff like that, with the Vault Village. If you haven't played in a while you might not even notice anything really changed, but you'll notice that stuff suddenly makes a lot more sense. And if you've never played it while turning every rock over you might discover things you never knew were there in all this time, because of either screwups with the og development/rushed release, or screwups by people making the RP who didn't know what they were doing.
- Some fixes to New Reno and the Military Base quests that finally make them play out the way the game implies they ought to, but folks didn't even understand it was screwed up because they'd never get to the place without being overgeared and overleveled to begin with.

So if the rest of it sounds like "weaponized autism", and, yeah, that's a pretty accurate description for some of it - you still probably want this part of the whole thing. If it wasn't a modding thing and I was just paying a programmer to do things without asking questions, those would be done before anything else was even considered, and I'd have done 2 more things.

One would be to fix the sometimes incredibly misguided way some of the RP content was "restored". The science facility is in the wrong zone, for one thing. You have to tank end-game level wilderness to get there, but the place itself is early-midgame in terms of obstacles and loot. And a lot of random things about the RP like placing loot/weapons in places was not the way it was in the original, makes no sense if you understand how the progression was meant to go, and causes a bunch of screwups. The "economy rebalance" part that the modder did was not all silly. A lot of it is actually undoing the damage that the RP modders caused. And it didn't start with the idea that they were incompetent. It's just that most of the time there was an unreasonable and progression-breaking pile of loot in the wrong place, or the challenge level of somewhere was too low or too high for when you naturally end up there, but when I'd go looking into wht happened there, it turned out to not be that way in the original game most of the time. Most often the way it used to be originally was exactly how I would attempt to fix it even if I didn't know how it was originally, because that's the only way it made sense. So pretty much always just checkign how things were in the original just confirmed that, yes, this is a screwup, and not by the original devs. Some if it was just bugs, like guns having the wrong ammo, too. So some of this did get done, but I would've done more if it didn't involve having to explain each case to someone who's simply not played the game start to finish probably even once before attempting to mod it, and who thought it was a wilderness survival game about guns.

The other thing would have been to simply add the "missing evil path" that's obviously supposed to be there but likely got cut because of needing to rush the game out. The "good path", that takes you from the Den to VC, then to Gecko, then to Broken Hills-New Reno-etc is there, and if you just do everything there is to do in every town when you get there - assuming someone fixed the scouting quests in VC - you wouldn't even think the game's non-linear. It all works. But there was obviously going to be a path that takes you from the Den towards New Reno, probably through Redding, which would have more content in it, appropriate for players arriving there right after the Den, and get you involved in the New Reno - VC - Raiders stuff from the New Reno Front. But that would take actually developing it and modding it in. I mean, you *can* go straight to New Reno from the Den, but that requires out-of-game knowledge. So just because you can do that, folks tend to assume that the game is non-linear, when it's really just unfinished. After you look at what's there you could really just mod in an evil path and a completely fresh player wouldn't even know that its modded content, and probably wouldn't believe you if you told them that it was ever missing.

2) Traps and a bit of an economy rebalace

Traps are actually totes fine and interesting, and with the increased difficulty they're pretty key for you to get through setpiece battles in towns. If the og modder did anything really, trully good, traps were that. Keep in mind that the guy was very young and started modding the game for bizzare reasons without ever having played it through (to my knowledge) so if you try playing it without a separate mod that lets you control the other characters in your party it's just going to be unplayable.

The economy rebalance is p handy because the game throws so much loot at you in general that it trivializes everything even if you don't go sequence breaking to loot places. It's not really *that* necessary if the progression is fixed with the gameflow fixes, but since the modder really didn't know that much about the game he couldn't understand that most of the way it breaks down can be fixed with a handful of light-touch fixes, so he thought the whole thing needed rebalancing. And to some degree he was right, and a bunch of stuff he did ends up working very well.

What I'd advise here is turning on the option that Stimpaks irradiate you on use. There's literally no use for anti-rad drugs in the game, and what ends up happening because of this is that anti-rad stuff ends up being 1000 c bills for players which messess with how much money you've got once you start finding it. After thinking about it for a while I concluded that it's actually likely that the devs intended Stimpaks to irradiate you all along, which is *why* there's anti-rad stuff all over the place but mysteriously almost no way to get irradiated. Since you down stimpaks all the time, and combat can't really work any other way, that would be a way to make radiation always relevant, as opposed to tying it to certain locations and making it completely missable. It would also explain so much anti-rad stuff and geiger's counters all over the place. And partly explain the feeling you can get that stimpaks are just so OP in vanilla, since making them irradiate you puts a bit of a cap on how many you can carelessly down per encounter, and just going around stealing all the stimpaks doesn't break the game if you still need to be at least a bit careful with their use.

So while it may sound like a drastic change, it's really not, and it does wonders for the progression and not breaking the economy. It just feels like it was meant to be that way but for whatever reason got dropped at some point towards release. But no other implementation of radiation was put in, while so much stuff was left around the place in a way that seems to assume that you'll be irradiating yourself (and checking your radiation level) all the time. And if you go trying to figure out what possible source of radiation could produce it so omnipresently, you just end up with Stimpaks at the only one that fits the bill. And when you try to see if you're right - yep, it absolutely checks out and plays like it was meant to be that way all along. And you finally get to actually make use of the Geiger counter!

3) Stuff a kid who knew his programming, loved his guns, but had very little idea of what he was messing with did

You know, "it doesn't feel realistic that a double barreled shotgun should do this little damage". I tried my best to steer him to undo the most egregious stuff. At one point anything around the Den would just one-shot you even if you did everything there was to do up to that point in the Temple, Village, Klamath and the Den and just getting from the Den to Modoc after it was literally the only thing there was to do was impossible. But if you managed to save-scum the trek from Klamath to the Den and somehow got Vic and an a entry-level Bouble Barrel shotgun on him, HE'D one shot everything for you, because doooh. I hope he actually fixed that. But it makes the game pointlessly difficult in mind-blowingly autistic ways. I'm not sure anymore what's what, but if the installer still comes with the options to turn features off, anything that looks like someone who knows more about RL guns than they know about Fallout 2 did it is probably safe to turn off. Maybe he got some feedback from someone who knew how to manipulate him into doing the right thing, or maybe he actually playtested things in the meantime and saw for himself, so maybe not turn them off for a first attempt.

---

In short, just turn on the "gameflox fixes" part at installation and play it straight (no sequence breaking, just do stuff in towns and go to the next town where the game gives you an in-game reason to go) and you get "Fallout 2: The way it was meant to be all along" or "Fallout 2: If you didn't play it for a while you won't even notice anything's different, but it'll suddenly make sense from start to finish and you won't be sure why".

Turn on the some of the other stuff and you'll just not be showered with loot for no reason, more mechanics will be more useable and necessary, you'll have more options and stuff to do and reasons to do stuff, and it'll be a very good mod.

Turn on some of the other options and it'll be like: "I tried the game once, but the sound that the shotgun made didn't sound like the sound shotgun makes IRL, and the guns were not as lethal as they are in RL, so I made them be lethal, and the game is not meant to be linear at all, you're supposed to be scavenging around, so what if I made all the weapons in the game more dangerous and that if you actually go scavenging around you'll get one-shot because tanking bullets is unrealistic. What do you mean I ended up making it more linear?" sort of thing. So basically why it's best to pay programmers to do things, and only let them implement their ideas if they can get them past someone who hasn't sank most of his time into becoming a good programmer, but instead had time to acquire whatever ability it takes to understand that something like that quote there is insane.

The guy was a great programmer, mind you, incredible. Did things for the game you wouldn't believe anyone would be able to without reconstructing it from the ground up, but seemed physically incapable of even imagining that "makes sense to me" doesn't necessarily mean "it makes actual sense and/or reflects objective reality". But since he was aware that he didn't really know (or care) what the game was about other than guns (so to speak), he couldn't be completely wrong on that but still insanely convinced that he was right, like a die-hard Fallout modder who was just as autistic but had reasons to believe he knew what he was doing would be. So I managed to get him to implement some actually sensible fixes into the mod, which most other modders would protest and refuse to even attempt on equally if not moreso misguided and insane grounds. And he ended up fixing a ton of stuff, and some of his ideas were even great and superbly implemented, and really enriched the otherwise objectively sparse scavenging/surivival/economy game in a way that doesn't mess anything up.

I wouldn't play the game without the mod again, as the important part, the gameflow fixes, are really just an obvious patch. I'd be very careful about the other stuff, though, but not *that* much of it is actually "ok, obviously military-grade stupid", including some things that might look like that at first glance, and plenty of it still makes it the best one I ever played.
 
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Lujo

Augur
Joined
Mar 3, 2014
Messages
242
Lujo that is an excellent explanation of Ecco, really makes me want to try it out like you said!

Question: Can I run RPU? How is RPU by the way, I hear it really fixes some rough-around-the-edges stuff with RP

I think the OG modder had just made the thing compatible with it yesterday, so I'd wait a bit for a download of that, but yes. We're not really on speaking terms, for understandable reasons :D I mean I love the guy, and if I needed someone for programming anything I'd hire him on the spot, noone else needs to apply he's the guy to hire. But I wouldn't work with him unless I had a way to make him do things without needing to explain why, and if I couldn't also veto him doing things, also without needing to get into why.

He's got a ton of great ideas and pretty leet skills, mind you, and if you toss out the "actually really that misguided" things, the parts of EcCo that were just him with me playtesting for minor adjustments or even straight up just him but happened to not be misguided are probably still the best stuff you can find. And it's not even obvious which of the parts that look insane are "actually really that misguided", some are just unintuitive until you see them in action and it clicks. If he actually had any idea about Fallout 2 at the time he got into modding it, but still somehow was able to entertain the idea that someone knows more, we could've made a lot more subtle but necessary improvements and it would've been even better.
 
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NecroLord

Dumbfuck!
Dumbfuck
Joined
Sep 6, 2022
Messages
14,825
I happened to work on the mod, and while it's a mixed bag, if it still comes with the ability to disable features it's probably the best one out there.

It sort of has 3 kinds of features:

1) Gameflow fixes that make the progression not fall apart after GECKO. They're very small, and are basically stuff that would've just been patched post-release if the game was made later or wouldn't even be needed if the game wasn't rushed (simple but thorough playtesting would've alerted the devs to the issues they fix). All they do is make it so that if you go in blind and just follow the natural progression, stuff like ending up in NCR before you get to New Reno and then arriving at New Reno in Power Armor trivializing the midgame doesn't happen. You can still just go wherever whenever and do whatever, ofc, but this way you can give it to someone who's never played it and if they just follow where the game prompts them to go and do everything in every town, shit won't mysteriously break down at one point.

Mostly it's just:

- The scouting missions in VC that send you to Gecko and the to NCR have an additional quest between those two, which is scout around Broken Hills and report. This way you get involved with the whole VC-New Reno thing, which is supposed to be the midgame, at the right time, instead of skipping straight to NCR where you get thousands of XP just for talking to people and mad loot ahead of time. Small change, you may not even remember it not being like this always, but it'll suddenly make the whole game work better than it ever did, guaranteed.
- Some minor changes to the layout of the Raider base because since the other thing fixes the midgame, you get to actually play the midgame at the right time, and you're more likely to find the raiders through a questline than just run into the place, shoot it up, and end up with so much loot and ammo that you break the game without realizing it. I bet most people didn't even know the place has two entrances, simply because the screwup I outlined above.
- Some more stuff like that, with the Vault Village. If you haven't played in a while you might not even notice anything really changed, but you'll notice that stuff suddenly makes a lot more sense. And if you've never played it while turning every rock over you might discover things you never knew were there in all this time, because of either screwups with the og development/rushed release, or screwups by people making the RP who didn't know what they were doing.
- Some fixes to New Reno and the Military Base quests that finally make them play out the way the game implies they ought to, but folks didn't even understand it was screwed up because they'd never get to the place without being overgeared and overleveled to begin with.

So if the rest of it sounds like "weaponized autism", and, yeah, that's a pretty accurate description for some of it - you still probably want this part of the whole thing. If it wasn't a modding thing and I was just paying a programmer to do things without asking questions, those would be done before anything else was even considered, and I'd have done 2 more things.

One would be to fix the sometimes incredibly misguided way some of the RP content was "restored". The science facility is in the wrong zone, for one thing. You have to tank end-game level wilderness to get there, but the place itself is early-midgame in terms of obstacles and loot. And a lot of random things about the RP like placing loot/weapons in places was not the way it was in the original, makes no sense if you understand how the progression was meant to go, and causes a bunch of screwups. The "economy rebalance" part that the modder did was not all silly. A lot of it is actually undoing the damage that the RP modders caused. And it didn't start with the idea that they were incompetent. It's just that most of the time there was an unreasonable and progression-breaking pile of loot in the wrong place, or the challenge level of somewhere was too low or too high for when you naturally end up there, but when I'd go looking into wht happened there, it turned out to not be that way in the original game most of the time. Most often the way it used to be originally was exactly how I would attempt to fix it even if I didn't know how it was originally, because that's the only way it made sense. So pretty much always just checkign how things were in the original just confirmed that, yes, this is a screwup, and not by the original devs. Some if it was just bugs, like guns having the wrong ammo, too. So some of this did get done, but I would've done more if it didn't involve having to explain each case to someone who's simply not played the game start to finish probably even once before attempting to mod it, and who thought it was a wilderness survival game about guns.

The other thing would have been to simply add the "missing evil path" that's obviously supposed to be there but likely got cut because of needing to rush the game out. The "good path", that takes you from the Den to VC, then to Gecko, then to Broken Hills-New Reno-etc is there, and if you just do everything there is to do in every town when you get there - assuming someone fixed the scouting quests in VC - you wouldn't even think the game's non-linear. It all works. But there was obviously going to be a path that takes you from the Den towards New Reno, probably through Redding, which would have more content in it, appropriate for players arriving there right after the Den, and get you involved in the New Reno - VC - Raiders stuff from the New Reno Front. But that would take actually developing it and modding it in. I mean, you *can* go straight to New Reno from the Den, but that requires out-of-game knowledge. So just because you can do that, folks tend to assume that the game is non-linear, when it's really just unfinished. After you look at what's there you could really just mod in an evil path and a completely fresh player wouldn't even know that its modded content, and probably wouldn't believe you if you told them that it was ever missing.

2) Traps and a bit of an economy rebalace

Traps are actually totes fine and interesting, and with the increased difficulty they're pretty key for you to get through setpiece battles in towns. If the og modder did anything really, trully good, traps were that. Keep in mind that the guy was very young and started modding the game for bizzare reasons without ever having played it through (to my knowledge) so if you try playing it without a separate mod that lets you control the other characters in your party it's just going to be unplayable.

The economy rebalance is p handy because the game throws so much loot at you in general that it trivializes everything even if you don't go sequence breaking to loot places. It's not really *that* necessary if the progression is fixed with the gameflow fixes, but since the modder really didn't know that much about the game he couldn't understand that most of the way it breaks down can be fixed with a handful of light-touch fixes, so he thought the whole thing needed rebalancing. And to some degree he was right, and a bunch of stuff he did ends up working very well.

What I'd advise here is turning on the option that Stimpaks irradiate you on use. There's literally no use for anti-rad drugs in the game, and what ends up happening because of this is that anti-rad stuff ends up being 1000 c bills for players which messess with how much money you've got once you start finding it. After thinking about it for a while I concluded that it's actually likely that the devs intended Stimpaks to irradiate you all along, which is *why* there's anti-rad stuff all over the place but mysteriously almost no way to get irradiated. Since you down stimpaks all the time, and combat can't really work any other way, that would be a way to make radiation always relevant, as opposed to tying it to certain locations and making it completely missable. It would also explain so much anti-rad stuff and geiger's counters all over the place. And partly explain the feeling you can get that stimpaks are just so OP in vanilla, since making them irradiate you puts a bit of a cap on how many you can carelessly down per encounter, and just going around stealing all the stimpaks doesn't break the game if you still need to be at least a bit careful with their use.

So while it may sound like a drastic change, it's really not, and it does wonders for the progression and not breaking the economy. It just feels like it was meant to be that way but for whatever reason got dropped at some point towards release. But no other implementation of radiation was put in, while so much stuff was left around the place in a way that seems to assume that you'll be irradiating yourself (and checking your radiation level) all the time. And if you go trying to figure out what possible source of radiation could produce it so omnipresently, you just end up with Stimpaks at the only one that fits the bill. And when you try to see if you're right - yep, it absolutely checks out and plays like it was meant to be that way all along. And you finally get to actually make use of the Geiger counter!

3) Stuff a kid who knew his programming, loved his guns, but had very little idea of what he was messing with did

You know, "it doesn't feel realistic that a double barreled shotgun should do this little damage". I tried my best to steer him to undo the most egregious stuff. At one point anything around the Den would just one-shot you even if you did everything there was to do up to that point in the Temple, Village, Klamath and the Den and just getting from the Den to Modoc after it was literally the only thing there was to do was impossible. But if you managed to save-scum the trek from Klamath to the Den and somehow got Vic and an a entry-level Bouble Barrel shotgun on him, HE'D one shot everything for you, because doooh. I hope he actually fixed that. But it makes the game pointlessly difficult in mind-blowingly autistic ways. I'm not sure anymore what's what, but if the installer still comes with the options to turn features off, anything that looks like someone who knows more about RL guns than they know about Fallout 2 did it is probably safe to turn off. Maybe he got some feedback from someone who knew how to manipulate him into doing the right thing, or maybe he actually playtested things in the meantime and saw for himself, so maybe not turn them off for a first attempt.

---

In short, just turn on the "gameflox fixes" part at installation and play it straight (no sequence breaking, just do stuff in towns and go to the next town where the game gives you an in-game reason to go) and you get "Fallout 2: The way it was meant to be all along" or "Fallout 2: If you didn't play it for a while you won't even notice anything's different, but it'll suddenly make sense from start to finish and you won't be sure why".

Turn on the some of the other stuff and you'll just not be showered with loot for no reason, more mechanics will be more useable, you'll have more options, and it'll be a very good mod.

Turn on some of the other options and it'll be like: "I tried the game once, but the sound that the shotgun made didn't sound like the sound shotgun makes IRL, and the guns were not as lethal in RL, so I made them be lethal, and the game is not meant to be linear at all, you're supposed to be scavenging around, so I made all the weapons in the game more dangerous so that if you actually go scavenging around you'll get one-shot because tanking bullets is unrealistic. What do you mean I ended up making it more linear?" sort of thing. So basically why it's best to pay programmers to do things, and only let them implement their ideas if they can get them past someone who hasn't sank most of his time into becoming a good programmer but instead had time to acquire whatever ability it takes to understand that something like that quote there is insane.

The guy was a great programmer, mind you, incredible. Did things for the game you wouldn't believe anyone would be able to without reconstructing it from the ground up, but seemed physically incapable of even imagining that "makes sense to me" doesn't necessarily mean "it makes actual sense and/or reflects objective reality". But since he was aware that he didn't really know (or care) what the game was about other than guns (so to speak), he couldn't be completely wrong on that but still insanely convinced that he was right, like a die-hard Fallout modder who was just as autistic but had reasons to believe he knew what he was doing would be. So I managed to get him to implement some actually sensible fixes into the mod, which most other modders would protest and refuse to even attempt on equally if not moreso misguided and insane grounds. And he ended up fixing a ton of stuff, and some of his ideas were even great and superbly implemented, and really enriched the otherwise objectively sparse scavenging/surivival/economy game in a way that doesn't mess anything up.

I wouldn't play the game without the mod again, as the important part, the gameflow fixes, are really just an obvious patch. I'd be very careful about the other stuff, though, but not *that* much of it is actually "ok, obviously military-grade stupid", including some things that might look like that at first glance, and plenty of it still makes it the best one I ever played.
Yet more modder arbitrary "fixes".
If you break into a post nuclear military base, you expect to find some serious gear laying around.
"B-but what about 'muh balance?" Military bases should have sizeable loot in them.
Stimpacks inflicting radiation is also dogshit, considering the fact you will have to use them so often. Really no serious explanation for why this is... Oh, some "lore" shit? Come on...
 

Lujo

Augur
Joined
Mar 3, 2014
Messages
242
I happened to work on the mod, and while it's a mixed bag, if it still comes with the ability to disable features it's probably the best one out there.

It sort of has 3 kinds of features:

1) Gameflow fixes that make the progression not fall apart after GECKO. They're very small, and are basically stuff that would've just been patched post-release if the game was made later or wouldn't even be needed if the game wasn't rushed (simple but thorough playtesting would've alerted the devs to the issues they fix). All they do is make it so that if you go in blind and just follow the natural progression, stuff like ending up in NCR before you get to New Reno and then arriving at New Reno in Power Armor trivializing the midgame doesn't happen. You can still just go wherever whenever and do whatever, ofc, but this way you can give it to someone who's never played it and if they just follow where the game prompts them to go and do everything in every town, shit won't mysteriously break down at one point.

Mostly it's just:

- The scouting missions in VC that send you to Gecko and the to NCR have an additional quest between those two, which is scout around Broken Hills and report. This way you get involved with the whole VC-New Reno thing, which is supposed to be the midgame, at the right time, instead of skipping straight to NCR where you get thousands of XP just for talking to people and mad loot ahead of time. Small change, you may not even remember it not being like this always, but it'll suddenly make the whole game work better than it ever did, guaranteed.
- Some minor changes to the layout of the Raider base because since the other thing fixes the midgame, you get to actually play the midgame at the right time, and you're more likely to find the raiders through a questline than just run into the place, shoot it up, and end up with so much loot and ammo that you break the game without realizing it. I bet most people didn't even know the place has two entrances, simply because the screwup I outlined above.
- Some more stuff like that, with the Vault Village. If you haven't played in a while you might not even notice anything really changed, but you'll notice that stuff suddenly makes a lot more sense. And if you've never played it while turning every rock over you might discover things you never knew were there in all this time, because of either screwups with the og development/rushed release, or screwups by people making the RP who didn't know what they were doing.
- Some fixes to New Reno and the Military Base quests that finally make them play out the way the game implies they ought to, but folks didn't even understand it was screwed up because they'd never get to the place without being overgeared and overleveled to begin with.

So if the rest of it sounds like "weaponized autism", and, yeah, that's a pretty accurate description for some of it - you still probably want this part of the whole thing. If it wasn't a modding thing and I was just paying a programmer to do things without asking questions, those would be done before anything else was even considered, and I'd have done 2 more things.

One would be to fix the sometimes incredibly misguided way some of the RP content was "restored". The science facility is in the wrong zone, for one thing. You have to tank end-game level wilderness to get there, but the place itself is early-midgame in terms of obstacles and loot. And a lot of random things about the RP like placing loot/weapons in places was not the way it was in the original, makes no sense if you understand how the progression was meant to go, and causes a bunch of screwups. The "economy rebalance" part that the modder did was not all silly. A lot of it is actually undoing the damage that the RP modders caused. And it didn't start with the idea that they were incompetent. It's just that most of the time there was an unreasonable and progression-breaking pile of loot in the wrong place, or the challenge level of somewhere was too low or too high for when you naturally end up there, but when I'd go looking into wht happened there, it turned out to not be that way in the original game most of the time. Most often the way it used to be originally was exactly how I would attempt to fix it even if I didn't know how it was originally, because that's the only way it made sense. So pretty much always just checkign how things were in the original just confirmed that, yes, this is a screwup, and not by the original devs. Some if it was just bugs, like guns having the wrong ammo, too. So some of this did get done, but I would've done more if it didn't involve having to explain each case to someone who's simply not played the game start to finish probably even once before attempting to mod it, and who thought it was a wilderness survival game about guns.

The other thing would have been to simply add the "missing evil path" that's obviously supposed to be there but likely got cut because of needing to rush the game out. The "good path", that takes you from the Den to VC, then to Gecko, then to Broken Hills-New Reno-etc is there, and if you just do everything there is to do in every town when you get there - assuming someone fixed the scouting quests in VC - you wouldn't even think the game's non-linear. It all works. But there was obviously going to be a path that takes you from the Den towards New Reno, probably through Redding, which would have more content in it, appropriate for players arriving there right after the Den, and get you involved in the New Reno - VC - Raiders stuff from the New Reno Front. But that would take actually developing it and modding it in. I mean, you *can* go straight to New Reno from the Den, but that requires out-of-game knowledge. So just because you can do that, folks tend to assume that the game is non-linear, when it's really just unfinished. After you look at what's there you could really just mod in an evil path and a completely fresh player wouldn't even know that its modded content, and probably wouldn't believe you if you told them that it was ever missing.

2) Traps and a bit of an economy rebalace

Traps are actually totes fine and interesting, and with the increased difficulty they're pretty key for you to get through setpiece battles in towns. If the og modder did anything really, trully good, traps were that. Keep in mind that the guy was very young and started modding the game for bizzare reasons without ever having played it through (to my knowledge) so if you try playing it without a separate mod that lets you control the other characters in your party it's just going to be unplayable.

The economy rebalance is p handy because the game throws so much loot at you in general that it trivializes everything even if you don't go sequence breaking to loot places. It's not really *that* necessary if the progression is fixed with the gameflow fixes, but since the modder really didn't know that much about the game he couldn't understand that most of the way it breaks down can be fixed with a handful of light-touch fixes, so he thought the whole thing needed rebalancing. And to some degree he was right, and a bunch of stuff he did ends up working very well.

What I'd advise here is turning on the option that Stimpaks irradiate you on use. There's literally no use for anti-rad drugs in the game, and what ends up happening because of this is that anti-rad stuff ends up being 1000 c bills for players which messess with how much money you've got once you start finding it. After thinking about it for a while I concluded that it's actually likely that the devs intended Stimpaks to irradiate you all along, which is *why* there's anti-rad stuff all over the place but mysteriously almost no way to get irradiated. Since you down stimpaks all the time, and combat can't really work any other way, that would be a way to make radiation always relevant, as opposed to tying it to certain locations and making it completely missable. It would also explain so much anti-rad stuff and geiger's counters all over the place. And partly explain the feeling you can get that stimpaks are just so OP in vanilla, since making them irradiate you puts a bit of a cap on how many you can carelessly down per encounter, and just going around stealing all the stimpaks doesn't break the game if you still need to be at least a bit careful with their use.

So while it may sound like a drastic change, it's really not, and it does wonders for the progression and not breaking the economy. It just feels like it was meant to be that way but for whatever reason got dropped at some point towards release. But no other implementation of radiation was put in, while so much stuff was left around the place in a way that seems to assume that you'll be irradiating yourself (and checking your radiation level) all the time. And if you go trying to figure out what possible source of radiation could produce it so omnipresently, you just end up with Stimpaks at the only one that fits the bill. And when you try to see if you're right - yep, it absolutely checks out and plays like it was meant to be that way all along. And you finally get to actually make use of the Geiger counter!

3) Stuff a kid who knew his programming, loved his guns, but had very little idea of what he was messing with did

You know, "it doesn't feel realistic that a double barreled shotgun should do this little damage". I tried my best to steer him to undo the most egregious stuff. At one point anything around the Den would just one-shot you even if you did everything there was to do up to that point in the Temple, Village, Klamath and the Den and just getting from the Den to Modoc after it was literally the only thing there was to do was impossible. But if you managed to save-scum the trek from Klamath to the Den and somehow got Vic and an a entry-level Bouble Barrel shotgun on him, HE'D one shot everything for you, because doooh. I hope he actually fixed that. But it makes the game pointlessly difficult in mind-blowingly autistic ways. I'm not sure anymore what's what, but if the installer still comes with the options to turn features off, anything that looks like someone who knows more about RL guns than they know about Fallout 2 did it is probably safe to turn off. Maybe he got some feedback from someone who knew how to manipulate him into doing the right thing, or maybe he actually playtested things in the meantime and saw for himself, so maybe not turn them off for a first attempt.

---

In short, just turn on the "gameflox fixes" part at installation and play it straight (no sequence breaking, just do stuff in towns and go to the next town where the game gives you an in-game reason to go) and you get "Fallout 2: The way it was meant to be all along" or "Fallout 2: If you didn't play it for a while you won't even notice anything's different, but it'll suddenly make sense from start to finish and you won't be sure why".

Turn on the some of the other stuff and you'll just not be showered with loot for no reason, more mechanics will be more useable, you'll have more options, and it'll be a very good mod.

Turn on some of the other options and it'll be like: "I tried the game once, but the sound that the shotgun made didn't sound like the sound shotgun makes IRL, and the guns were not as lethal in RL, so I made them be lethal, and the game is not meant to be linear at all, you're supposed to be scavenging around, so I made all the weapons in the game more dangerous so that if you actually go scavenging around you'll get one-shot because tanking bullets is unrealistic. What do you mean I ended up making it more linear?" sort of thing. So basically why it's best to pay programmers to do things, and only let them implement their ideas if they can get them past someone who hasn't sank most of his time into becoming a good programmer but instead had time to acquire whatever ability it takes to understand that something like that quote there is insane.

The guy was a great programmer, mind you, incredible. Did things for the game you wouldn't believe anyone would be able to without reconstructing it from the ground up, but seemed physically incapable of even imagining that "makes sense to me" doesn't necessarily mean "it makes actual sense and/or reflects objective reality". But since he was aware that he didn't really know (or care) what the game was about other than guns (so to speak), he couldn't be completely wrong on that but still insanely convinced that he was right, like a die-hard Fallout modder who was just as autistic but had reasons to believe he knew what he was doing would be. So I managed to get him to implement some actually sensible fixes into the mod, which most other modders would protest and refuse to even attempt on equally if not moreso misguided and insane grounds. And he ended up fixing a ton of stuff, and some of his ideas were even great and superbly implemented, and really enriched the otherwise objectively sparse scavenging/surivival/economy game in a way that doesn't mess anything up.

I wouldn't play the game without the mod again, as the important part, the gameflow fixes, are really just an obvious patch. I'd be very careful about the other stuff, though, but not *that* much of it is actually "ok, obviously military-grade stupid", including some things that might look like that at first glance, and plenty of it still makes it the best one I ever played.
Yet more modder arbitrary "fixes".
If you break into a post nuclear military base, you expect to find some serious gear laying around.
"B-but what about 'muh balance?" Military bases should have sizeable loot in them.
Stimpacks inflicting radiation is also dogshit, considering the fact you will have to use them so often. Really no serious explanation for why this is... Oh, some "lore" shit? Come on...

"Some lore shit" is why the modder made it optional. It didn't make sense to him that Stimpaks should irradiate because "it goes against lore". If anyone tried the mod with that part on, and doesn't have personal ideas about what Stimpaks are supposed to be like, they'll find that a ton of other game objects suddenly make a ton more sense where before they made none, and caused a pretty hefty inflation of money that then trivialized various challenges. It tangibly, demonstrably and objectively makes the game as a whole simply work better as a game, to the point that it's easy to conclude that this was how it was supposed to be all along and that the game was developed for a good while with Stimpaks irradiating on use in the first place. Even that when they made them not irradiate anymore, they still left everything else as-is even though it wouldn't make sense to be that way anymore. You'll never know if you don't try, and the only thing that can stop you from trying is... your own personal ideas about what Stimpaks should work like.

Your arguments are based on what makes sense to you, while the changes were made based on game logic instead. If "healing item X" irradiates, then all the "anti-radiation items Y" have a mechanical reason to be there. If it doesn't, they do nothing meaningful, but accidentally flood the player with money. And nothing about the game suggests that their intended use was to be "1000 $ bills". It makes no matter what anyone personally thinks about it, it's empirically proveable. These changes work and do intended beneficial things or undo sequencing screwups even if you strip off all the labels and the art assets or paint whatever else in their place.

Ofc, the OG modder figured that becuse he couldn't make sense of this, other people also wouldn't, so he made it optional, so even if something else about the mod happens to accidentally align with your personal opinions you can still play it for those features, noone's stopping you.
 
Last edited:

NecroLord

Dumbfuck!
Dumbfuck
Joined
Sep 6, 2022
Messages
14,825
I happened to work on the mod, and while it's a mixed bag, if it still comes with the ability to disable features it's probably the best one out there.

It sort of has 3 kinds of features:

1) Gameflow fixes that make the progression not fall apart after GECKO. They're very small, and are basically stuff that would've just been patched post-release if the game was made later or wouldn't even be needed if the game wasn't rushed (simple but thorough playtesting would've alerted the devs to the issues they fix). All they do is make it so that if you go in blind and just follow the natural progression, stuff like ending up in NCR before you get to New Reno and then arriving at New Reno in Power Armor trivializing the midgame doesn't happen. You can still just go wherever whenever and do whatever, ofc, but this way you can give it to someone who's never played it and if they just follow where the game prompts them to go and do everything in every town, shit won't mysteriously break down at one point.

Mostly it's just:

- The scouting missions in VC that send you to Gecko and the to NCR have an additional quest between those two, which is scout around Broken Hills and report. This way you get involved with the whole VC-New Reno thing, which is supposed to be the midgame, at the right time, instead of skipping straight to NCR where you get thousands of XP just for talking to people and mad loot ahead of time. Small change, you may not even remember it not being like this always, but it'll suddenly make the whole game work better than it ever did, guaranteed.
- Some minor changes to the layout of the Raider base because since the other thing fixes the midgame, you get to actually play the midgame at the right time, and you're more likely to find the raiders through a questline than just run into the place, shoot it up, and end up with so much loot and ammo that you break the game without realizing it. I bet most people didn't even know the place has two entrances, simply because the screwup I outlined above.
- Some more stuff like that, with the Vault Village. If you haven't played in a while you might not even notice anything really changed, but you'll notice that stuff suddenly makes a lot more sense. And if you've never played it while turning every rock over you might discover things you never knew were there in all this time, because of either screwups with the og development/rushed release, or screwups by people making the RP who didn't know what they were doing.
- Some fixes to New Reno and the Military Base quests that finally make them play out the way the game implies they ought to, but folks didn't even understand it was screwed up because they'd never get to the place without being overgeared and overleveled to begin with.

So if the rest of it sounds like "weaponized autism", and, yeah, that's a pretty accurate description for some of it - you still probably want this part of the whole thing. If it wasn't a modding thing and I was just paying a programmer to do things without asking questions, those would be done before anything else was even considered, and I'd have done 2 more things.

One would be to fix the sometimes incredibly misguided way some of the RP content was "restored". The science facility is in the wrong zone, for one thing. You have to tank end-game level wilderness to get there, but the place itself is early-midgame in terms of obstacles and loot. And a lot of random things about the RP like placing loot/weapons in places was not the way it was in the original, makes no sense if you understand how the progression was meant to go, and causes a bunch of screwups. The "economy rebalance" part that the modder did was not all silly. A lot of it is actually undoing the damage that the RP modders caused. And it didn't start with the idea that they were incompetent. It's just that most of the time there was an unreasonable and progression-breaking pile of loot in the wrong place, or the challenge level of somewhere was too low or too high for when you naturally end up there, but when I'd go looking into wht happened there, it turned out to not be that way in the original game most of the time. Most often the way it used to be originally was exactly how I would attempt to fix it even if I didn't know how it was originally, because that's the only way it made sense. So pretty much always just checkign how things were in the original just confirmed that, yes, this is a screwup, and not by the original devs. Some if it was just bugs, like guns having the wrong ammo, too. So some of this did get done, but I would've done more if it didn't involve having to explain each case to someone who's simply not played the game start to finish probably even once before attempting to mod it, and who thought it was a wilderness survival game about guns.

The other thing would have been to simply add the "missing evil path" that's obviously supposed to be there but likely got cut because of needing to rush the game out. The "good path", that takes you from the Den to VC, then to Gecko, then to Broken Hills-New Reno-etc is there, and if you just do everything there is to do in every town when you get there - assuming someone fixed the scouting quests in VC - you wouldn't even think the game's non-linear. It all works. But there was obviously going to be a path that takes you from the Den towards New Reno, probably through Redding, which would have more content in it, appropriate for players arriving there right after the Den, and get you involved in the New Reno - VC - Raiders stuff from the New Reno Front. But that would take actually developing it and modding it in. I mean, you *can* go straight to New Reno from the Den, but that requires out-of-game knowledge. So just because you can do that, folks tend to assume that the game is non-linear, when it's really just unfinished. After you look at what's there you could really just mod in an evil path and a completely fresh player wouldn't even know that its modded content, and probably wouldn't believe you if you told them that it was ever missing.

2) Traps and a bit of an economy rebalace

Traps are actually totes fine and interesting, and with the increased difficulty they're pretty key for you to get through setpiece battles in towns. If the og modder did anything really, trully good, traps were that. Keep in mind that the guy was very young and started modding the game for bizzare reasons without ever having played it through (to my knowledge) so if you try playing it without a separate mod that lets you control the other characters in your party it's just going to be unplayable.

The economy rebalance is p handy because the game throws so much loot at you in general that it trivializes everything even if you don't go sequence breaking to loot places. It's not really *that* necessary if the progression is fixed with the gameflow fixes, but since the modder really didn't know that much about the game he couldn't understand that most of the way it breaks down can be fixed with a handful of light-touch fixes, so he thought the whole thing needed rebalancing. And to some degree he was right, and a bunch of stuff he did ends up working very well.

What I'd advise here is turning on the option that Stimpaks irradiate you on use. There's literally no use for anti-rad drugs in the game, and what ends up happening because of this is that anti-rad stuff ends up being 1000 c bills for players which messess with how much money you've got once you start finding it. After thinking about it for a while I concluded that it's actually likely that the devs intended Stimpaks to irradiate you all along, which is *why* there's anti-rad stuff all over the place but mysteriously almost no way to get irradiated. Since you down stimpaks all the time, and combat can't really work any other way, that would be a way to make radiation always relevant, as opposed to tying it to certain locations and making it completely missable. It would also explain so much anti-rad stuff and geiger's counters all over the place. And partly explain the feeling you can get that stimpaks are just so OP in vanilla, since making them irradiate you puts a bit of a cap on how many you can carelessly down per encounter, and just going around stealing all the stimpaks doesn't break the game if you still need to be at least a bit careful with their use.

So while it may sound like a drastic change, it's really not, and it does wonders for the progression and not breaking the economy. It just feels like it was meant to be that way but for whatever reason got dropped at some point towards release. But no other implementation of radiation was put in, while so much stuff was left around the place in a way that seems to assume that you'll be irradiating yourself (and checking your radiation level) all the time. And if you go trying to figure out what possible source of radiation could produce it so omnipresently, you just end up with Stimpaks at the only one that fits the bill. And when you try to see if you're right - yep, it absolutely checks out and plays like it was meant to be that way all along. And you finally get to actually make use of the Geiger counter!

3) Stuff a kid who knew his programming, loved his guns, but had very little idea of what he was messing with did

You know, "it doesn't feel realistic that a double barreled shotgun should do this little damage". I tried my best to steer him to undo the most egregious stuff. At one point anything around the Den would just one-shot you even if you did everything there was to do up to that point in the Temple, Village, Klamath and the Den and just getting from the Den to Modoc after it was literally the only thing there was to do was impossible. But if you managed to save-scum the trek from Klamath to the Den and somehow got Vic and an a entry-level Bouble Barrel shotgun on him, HE'D one shot everything for you, because doooh. I hope he actually fixed that. But it makes the game pointlessly difficult in mind-blowingly autistic ways. I'm not sure anymore what's what, but if the installer still comes with the options to turn features off, anything that looks like someone who knows more about RL guns than they know about Fallout 2 did it is probably safe to turn off. Maybe he got some feedback from someone who knew how to manipulate him into doing the right thing, or maybe he actually playtested things in the meantime and saw for himself, so maybe not turn them off for a first attempt.

---

In short, just turn on the "gameflox fixes" part at installation and play it straight (no sequence breaking, just do stuff in towns and go to the next town where the game gives you an in-game reason to go) and you get "Fallout 2: The way it was meant to be all along" or "Fallout 2: If you didn't play it for a while you won't even notice anything's different, but it'll suddenly make sense from start to finish and you won't be sure why".

Turn on the some of the other stuff and you'll just not be showered with loot for no reason, more mechanics will be more useable, you'll have more options, and it'll be a very good mod.

Turn on some of the other options and it'll be like: "I tried the game once, but the sound that the shotgun made didn't sound like the sound shotgun makes IRL, and the guns were not as lethal in RL, so I made them be lethal, and the game is not meant to be linear at all, you're supposed to be scavenging around, so I made all the weapons in the game more dangerous so that if you actually go scavenging around you'll get one-shot because tanking bullets is unrealistic. What do you mean I ended up making it more linear?" sort of thing. So basically why it's best to pay programmers to do things, and only let them implement their ideas if they can get them past someone who hasn't sank most of his time into becoming a good programmer but instead had time to acquire whatever ability it takes to understand that something like that quote there is insane.

The guy was a great programmer, mind you, incredible. Did things for the game you wouldn't believe anyone would be able to without reconstructing it from the ground up, but seemed physically incapable of even imagining that "makes sense to me" doesn't necessarily mean "it makes actual sense and/or reflects objective reality". But since he was aware that he didn't really know (or care) what the game was about other than guns (so to speak), he couldn't be completely wrong on that but still insanely convinced that he was right, like a die-hard Fallout modder who was just as autistic but had reasons to believe he knew what he was doing would be. So I managed to get him to implement some actually sensible fixes into the mod, which most other modders would protest and refuse to even attempt on equally if not moreso misguided and insane grounds. And he ended up fixing a ton of stuff, and some of his ideas were even great and superbly implemented, and really enriched the otherwise objectively sparse scavenging/surivival/economy game in a way that doesn't mess anything up.

I wouldn't play the game without the mod again, as the important part, the gameflow fixes, are really just an obvious patch. I'd be very careful about the other stuff, though, but not *that* much of it is actually "ok, obviously military-grade stupid", including some things that might look like that at first glance, and plenty of it still makes it the best one I ever played.
Yet more modder arbitrary "fixes".
If you break into a post nuclear military base, you expect to find some serious gear laying around.
"B-but what about 'muh balance?" Military bases should have sizeable loot in them.
Stimpacks inflicting radiation is also dogshit, considering the fact you will have to use them so often. Really no serious explanation for why this is... Oh, some "lore" shit? Come on...

"Some lore shit" is why the modder made it optional. It didn't make sense to him that Stimpaks should irradiate because "it goes against lore".

Your arguments are based on what makes sense to you, while the changes were made based on in-game logic instead. They work and do intended beneficial things even if you strip off all the labels and the art assets or paint whatever else in their place.
Like I said, modder arbitrary changes disguised as "balancing".
Did he even bother to check with the players and the rest of the FO community?
 

Lujo

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242
I happened to work on the mod, and while it's a mixed bag, if it still comes with the ability to disable features it's probably the best one out there.

It sort of has 3 kinds of features:

1) Gameflow fixes that make the progression not fall apart after GECKO. They're very small, and are basically stuff that would've just been patched post-release if the game was made later or wouldn't even be needed if the game wasn't rushed (simple but thorough playtesting would've alerted the devs to the issues they fix). All they do is make it so that if you go in blind and just follow the natural progression, stuff like ending up in NCR before you get to New Reno and then arriving at New Reno in Power Armor trivializing the midgame doesn't happen. You can still just go wherever whenever and do whatever, ofc, but this way you can give it to someone who's never played it and if they just follow where the game prompts them to go and do everything in every town, shit won't mysteriously break down at one point.

Mostly it's just:

- The scouting missions in VC that send you to Gecko and the to NCR have an additional quest between those two, which is scout around Broken Hills and report. This way you get involved with the whole VC-New Reno thing, which is supposed to be the midgame, at the right time, instead of skipping straight to NCR where you get thousands of XP just for talking to people and mad loot ahead of time. Small change, you may not even remember it not being like this always, but it'll suddenly make the whole game work better than it ever did, guaranteed.
- Some minor changes to the layout of the Raider base because since the other thing fixes the midgame, you get to actually play the midgame at the right time, and you're more likely to find the raiders through a questline than just run into the place, shoot it up, and end up with so much loot and ammo that you break the game without realizing it. I bet most people didn't even know the place has two entrances, simply because the screwup I outlined above.
- Some more stuff like that, with the Vault Village. If you haven't played in a while you might not even notice anything really changed, but you'll notice that stuff suddenly makes a lot more sense. And if you've never played it while turning every rock over you might discover things you never knew were there in all this time, because of either screwups with the og development/rushed release, or screwups by people making the RP who didn't know what they were doing.
- Some fixes to New Reno and the Military Base quests that finally make them play out the way the game implies they ought to, but folks didn't even understand it was screwed up because they'd never get to the place without being overgeared and overleveled to begin with.

So if the rest of it sounds like "weaponized autism", and, yeah, that's a pretty accurate description for some of it - you still probably want this part of the whole thing. If it wasn't a modding thing and I was just paying a programmer to do things without asking questions, those would be done before anything else was even considered, and I'd have done 2 more things.

One would be to fix the sometimes incredibly misguided way some of the RP content was "restored". The science facility is in the wrong zone, for one thing. You have to tank end-game level wilderness to get there, but the place itself is early-midgame in terms of obstacles and loot. And a lot of random things about the RP like placing loot/weapons in places was not the way it was in the original, makes no sense if you understand how the progression was meant to go, and causes a bunch of screwups. The "economy rebalance" part that the modder did was not all silly. A lot of it is actually undoing the damage that the RP modders caused. And it didn't start with the idea that they were incompetent. It's just that most of the time there was an unreasonable and progression-breaking pile of loot in the wrong place, or the challenge level of somewhere was too low or too high for when you naturally end up there, but when I'd go looking into wht happened there, it turned out to not be that way in the original game most of the time. Most often the way it used to be originally was exactly how I would attempt to fix it even if I didn't know how it was originally, because that's the only way it made sense. So pretty much always just checkign how things were in the original just confirmed that, yes, this is a screwup, and not by the original devs. Some if it was just bugs, like guns having the wrong ammo, too. So some of this did get done, but I would've done more if it didn't involve having to explain each case to someone who's simply not played the game start to finish probably even once before attempting to mod it, and who thought it was a wilderness survival game about guns.

The other thing would have been to simply add the "missing evil path" that's obviously supposed to be there but likely got cut because of needing to rush the game out. The "good path", that takes you from the Den to VC, then to Gecko, then to Broken Hills-New Reno-etc is there, and if you just do everything there is to do in every town when you get there - assuming someone fixed the scouting quests in VC - you wouldn't even think the game's non-linear. It all works. But there was obviously going to be a path that takes you from the Den towards New Reno, probably through Redding, which would have more content in it, appropriate for players arriving there right after the Den, and get you involved in the New Reno - VC - Raiders stuff from the New Reno Front. But that would take actually developing it and modding it in. I mean, you *can* go straight to New Reno from the Den, but that requires out-of-game knowledge. So just because you can do that, folks tend to assume that the game is non-linear, when it's really just unfinished. After you look at what's there you could really just mod in an evil path and a completely fresh player wouldn't even know that its modded content, and probably wouldn't believe you if you told them that it was ever missing.

2) Traps and a bit of an economy rebalace

Traps are actually totes fine and interesting, and with the increased difficulty they're pretty key for you to get through setpiece battles in towns. If the og modder did anything really, trully good, traps were that. Keep in mind that the guy was very young and started modding the game for bizzare reasons without ever having played it through (to my knowledge) so if you try playing it without a separate mod that lets you control the other characters in your party it's just going to be unplayable.

The economy rebalance is p handy because the game throws so much loot at you in general that it trivializes everything even if you don't go sequence breaking to loot places. It's not really *that* necessary if the progression is fixed with the gameflow fixes, but since the modder really didn't know that much about the game he couldn't understand that most of the way it breaks down can be fixed with a handful of light-touch fixes, so he thought the whole thing needed rebalancing. And to some degree he was right, and a bunch of stuff he did ends up working very well.

What I'd advise here is turning on the option that Stimpaks irradiate you on use. There's literally no use for anti-rad drugs in the game, and what ends up happening because of this is that anti-rad stuff ends up being 1000 c bills for players which messess with how much money you've got once you start finding it. After thinking about it for a while I concluded that it's actually likely that the devs intended Stimpaks to irradiate you all along, which is *why* there's anti-rad stuff all over the place but mysteriously almost no way to get irradiated. Since you down stimpaks all the time, and combat can't really work any other way, that would be a way to make radiation always relevant, as opposed to tying it to certain locations and making it completely missable. It would also explain so much anti-rad stuff and geiger's counters all over the place. And partly explain the feeling you can get that stimpaks are just so OP in vanilla, since making them irradiate you puts a bit of a cap on how many you can carelessly down per encounter, and just going around stealing all the stimpaks doesn't break the game if you still need to be at least a bit careful with their use.

So while it may sound like a drastic change, it's really not, and it does wonders for the progression and not breaking the economy. It just feels like it was meant to be that way but for whatever reason got dropped at some point towards release. But no other implementation of radiation was put in, while so much stuff was left around the place in a way that seems to assume that you'll be irradiating yourself (and checking your radiation level) all the time. And if you go trying to figure out what possible source of radiation could produce it so omnipresently, you just end up with Stimpaks at the only one that fits the bill. And when you try to see if you're right - yep, it absolutely checks out and plays like it was meant to be that way all along. And you finally get to actually make use of the Geiger counter!

3) Stuff a kid who knew his programming, loved his guns, but had very little idea of what he was messing with did

You know, "it doesn't feel realistic that a double barreled shotgun should do this little damage". I tried my best to steer him to undo the most egregious stuff. At one point anything around the Den would just one-shot you even if you did everything there was to do up to that point in the Temple, Village, Klamath and the Den and just getting from the Den to Modoc after it was literally the only thing there was to do was impossible. But if you managed to save-scum the trek from Klamath to the Den and somehow got Vic and an a entry-level Bouble Barrel shotgun on him, HE'D one shot everything for you, because doooh. I hope he actually fixed that. But it makes the game pointlessly difficult in mind-blowingly autistic ways. I'm not sure anymore what's what, but if the installer still comes with the options to turn features off, anything that looks like someone who knows more about RL guns than they know about Fallout 2 did it is probably safe to turn off. Maybe he got some feedback from someone who knew how to manipulate him into doing the right thing, or maybe he actually playtested things in the meantime and saw for himself, so maybe not turn them off for a first attempt.

---

In short, just turn on the "gameflox fixes" part at installation and play it straight (no sequence breaking, just do stuff in towns and go to the next town where the game gives you an in-game reason to go) and you get "Fallout 2: The way it was meant to be all along" or "Fallout 2: If you didn't play it for a while you won't even notice anything's different, but it'll suddenly make sense from start to finish and you won't be sure why".

Turn on the some of the other stuff and you'll just not be showered with loot for no reason, more mechanics will be more useable, you'll have more options, and it'll be a very good mod.

Turn on some of the other options and it'll be like: "I tried the game once, but the sound that the shotgun made didn't sound like the sound shotgun makes IRL, and the guns were not as lethal in RL, so I made them be lethal, and the game is not meant to be linear at all, you're supposed to be scavenging around, so I made all the weapons in the game more dangerous so that if you actually go scavenging around you'll get one-shot because tanking bullets is unrealistic. What do you mean I ended up making it more linear?" sort of thing. So basically why it's best to pay programmers to do things, and only let them implement their ideas if they can get them past someone who hasn't sank most of his time into becoming a good programmer but instead had time to acquire whatever ability it takes to understand that something like that quote there is insane.

The guy was a great programmer, mind you, incredible. Did things for the game you wouldn't believe anyone would be able to without reconstructing it from the ground up, but seemed physically incapable of even imagining that "makes sense to me" doesn't necessarily mean "it makes actual sense and/or reflects objective reality". But since he was aware that he didn't really know (or care) what the game was about other than guns (so to speak), he couldn't be completely wrong on that but still insanely convinced that he was right, like a die-hard Fallout modder who was just as autistic but had reasons to believe he knew what he was doing would be. So I managed to get him to implement some actually sensible fixes into the mod, which most other modders would protest and refuse to even attempt on equally if not moreso misguided and insane grounds. And he ended up fixing a ton of stuff, and some of his ideas were even great and superbly implemented, and really enriched the otherwise objectively sparse scavenging/surivival/economy game in a way that doesn't mess anything up.

I wouldn't play the game without the mod again, as the important part, the gameflow fixes, are really just an obvious patch. I'd be very careful about the other stuff, though, but not *that* much of it is actually "ok, obviously military-grade stupid", including some things that might look like that at first glance, and plenty of it still makes it the best one I ever played.
Yet more modder arbitrary "fixes".
If you break into a post nuclear military base, you expect to find some serious gear laying around.
"B-but what about 'muh balance?" Military bases should have sizeable loot in them.
Stimpacks inflicting radiation is also dogshit, considering the fact you will have to use them so often. Really no serious explanation for why this is... Oh, some "lore" shit? Come on...

"Some lore shit" is why the modder made it optional. It didn't make sense to him that Stimpaks should irradiate because "it goes against lore".

Your arguments are based on what makes sense to you, while the changes were made based on in-game logic instead. They work and do intended beneficial things even if you strip off all the labels and the art assets or paint whatever else in their place.
Like I said, modder arbitrary changes disguised as "balancing".
Did he even bother to check with the players and the rest of the FO community?
To what end? :D

Anyone who tries it will see that it actually isn't even balancing so much as just patching stuff. And mostly adresses RP screwups that are already "modder changing random shit" but undocumented, so people play a heavily moded version of the game that's just marketed as a "restoration project", and only don't complain about this sort of thing because they don't even know how changed it is.

I said - for an astounding number of things we changed, it turned out that we changed it back to how it was originally before RP changed it without telling anyone. And every time we just used proper logic, we would first change it into what made actual sense, and only then go check and find out that what we did made it be exactly how it was originally. So quite a bunch of changes are the opposite of "modder arbitrarily chanes things" and adress exactly that done by other people.

And if you apply the gameflow fixes, suddenly so much original stuff that didn't make sense to RP people does make sense. They also saw that something was wrong, but they thought this meant that they could do whatever made sense to them. I just figured out what's wrong, and when you fix that, it becomes clear that there was no need to fiddle with most of the OG content that they fiddled with, and that it causes way more trouble than you'd think.
 
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Lujo

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242
Also complete lol. I went and checked my huge mountain of notes from all those years ago. The "gameflow fixes" were actually meant to be a very small mod that was supposed to better integrate RP content with the core game. And that one single most important thing - adding a Broken Hills scouting mission - was not done to "add something to the game" at all. I forgot all about that. :-D

It was because the RP fucked up how the original game sets you up to find the Raiders, and so makes ending up in NCR way ahead of time way more likely. *THAT* was random modders doing something that caused shit to break down unintentionally. And the whole point of my "mod" was to literally make stuff work the way it would originally, just a bit smoother and with almost no way to mess the progression up if you just play along with where the game takes you.
 

Lujo

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"non linearity is bad, here is more forced railroading" is not the kind of mod I would like to see in any rpg

Actually that's a fair point.

The thing is that nothing was changed with the intention of making the game *more* linear.

It was quietly *very* linear to begin with, and while you could break sequence and had absolute freedom of movement it always resulted in one of three things:

1) Either you'd run into a spawn zone you weren't equipped or leveled up enough to handle, and you'd die to any encounter.
2) You'd get lucky to avoid encounters / savescum, and arrive somewhere where you couldn't really do very much because you were too underleveled / underequipped / didn't have the quest hook from a place you skipped
3) Or you'd end up picking up so much dialogue-quest XP / steal so much out-of-sequence loot that it made the areas you skipped trivial and rewards in them meaningless if you ever went there afterwards

And you can still do this in that mod, except some of the content was tweaked so that IF you do that you don't necessarily end up screwing up your experience with the places that you skipped. Quite a bit of the mod actually ends up playing better in that way than the OG game did, as the consequences of actually going somewhere "out of order" are not nearly as dramatic as they were.

However:

If you didn't fall for the "so nonlinear, much freedom" illusion - and it really is an illusion - and just followed what the game was nudging you to do, you were always pretty firmly on rails in Fallout 2, except... when the RP introduced some things they ended up breaking the rails at a crucial moment, causing you to sequence skip even if you follow what looks like a natural progression. With all the negative consequences of doing that, and potentially completely ruining your midgame. The fix just made it work like it did in the original game, where if you choose to play it straight, you actually get more of a chance to play it straight and will hit all the places at the right time for the challenges and the rewards to be reasonably enjoyable.

And, it even improved on it, because the fix made it almost impossible to end up in deep shit while just following the rails, and even the OG game had the potential to do that to you unintentionally. So what happens now is not forced railroading as much as just ensuring that what railroading is there actually takes you to the right place.

That's all there is to it.

---

IN FACT - quite some of my playtesting feedback towards the og modder, who also loved the idea of nonlinearity better than he understood how it worked and how much it was an illusion specifically in FO2, was specifically me trying to explain to him that if he made weapons "more realistic" what would happen is that it'd make wandering around too lethal NOT to stick to towns and do them in progression. So while he was horrified at the idea of linearity, what he was trying to do to "fix" the game would in practice actually make it way more linear than it even was to begin with. I hope he figured that out at some point and that the snags of that kind that I was hitting all those years ago while playtesting are not present in the current mod.

So, no worries. It's not intuitive, maybe, but making the game more linear than it was was not (at least my) intention, and it's v likely possible to play the mod while deactivating anything in it that would make it more linear. I'm not sure what package in the installer contains what changes anymore, but the gameflow fixes won't screw you over, and what might (not sure) mess with it would be anything related to weapons damage (if that wasn't sorted out in the meantime) and whatever else makes worldmap encounters more difficult (forcing you to stick to towns too much and making you less able to even attempt to just go someplace when you feel like it).
 
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Lujo

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The game assumes you'll be in New Reno in the midgame, so that you won't have lazer-proof armor, so that the gang with the lazers can be properly terrfying.
dude, basic metal armor has 75 laser DR, and you can get it easily already in Vault City

It might've been misremembering the situation, it has been a long time ago. I do remember there was something like that related to that base, but I must've mixed up the exact problem with something else. The scenario that runs like that played out with a lot of different things, though. Something doesn't make sense - you try to figure out what would - go check - it used to be the way it made sense - RP seems to have changed it, or messing with weapons was what changed it.

Now I'm sorry I gave a bad / wrong example. The point was that the modder was modding more than playtesting, and I was playtesting, so whatever feedback I would give was aimed at trying to reduce negative consequences of fiddling with the placement/stats of stuff (by whoever did the messing around). Very often the logical solution turned out to be the same thing as reverting things to the way they were before any meddling was done.
 
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Lujo

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Oh, and here's some of my old feedback to an interested party about the modularity, not sure if anything changed:
____ went to a lot of trouble to make it all modular, so that you can technically install everything separtely and adjust to you liking... but after a lot of testing its not quite so modular in practice.

Economy is simple, you can probably slap it on vanilla, it lowers the drops of stuff and increases the prices of stuff in shops, lowers clip sizes and takes and rearanges loot around some places. However if you dial it too high and don't install crafting you'll make the game unplayable, and if you dial it too hard and install crafting it won't work too well because you'll be too reliant on free stuff and won't even use the shops (which is surprisingly more fun past a certain point than the original where you cheeze the shops too easily).

Traps are basically a huge seller of the mod, but they fully require crafting, you can't buy them anywhere, you can only craft them. And the rather well done and integrated crafting is quite a selling point (if you appy the weapon stuff and the economy stuff I think you'll have a really hard time without crafting, though I'm not sure). It's much less intrusive then in the megamod, for example, and really feels like an integral part of the game.

Essentially the only thing that's fully optional in practice is most of the weapon changes (throwing is pretty good although slightly too good in some situations, esp on enemies, most other changes just make combat shorter in practice and occasionally make a weapon better than it needs to be. I've tried it without most of them and it plays better.). As someone who's been up and down the game with the mod, I'm actually curious to hear how playable it is at all with only combat & economy and none of the other stuff.

Also in response to someone asking about whether to include the mod for some friends who've never played Restoration Project and wanted to try:

...the best thing about the mod is that it doesn't really deviate that much from the regular experience. The RP content definitely flows much smoother and feels more integrated with the crafting system (because now that fish, fruit and junk are crafting components it adds a lot to visiting Umbra and the Abbey for example), and the loot distribution in the EPA also alleviates some of the complaints I've herd about that place. And the gameflow fixes were designed to be part of the regular RP anyway. It plays more like an RP update than anything.

If they don't set the weapon drop rates and the economy settings to extreme harshness ends, and if they're unlikely to play Fallout 2 more than once and they're interested in RP exclusively, you're pretty safe to recommend it with everything on (except possibly the radiating stimpaks, as radiation only has an annoying cosmetic affect on the NPC which makes them spam radiated messages while not affecting their stats.)

Technically, any weapon mod including magnuses affects the general experience more than all stuff that looks like it would here (as it just fills empty design space in a sort of sensible way). If, for example, they installed E&R without weapon changes, there's basicaly 0 chance they'd even notice that something isn't simply a logical optional instal for the RP. Of the kind you always chackmark.

In fact - if you're trying to showcase the RP specifically, then doing it with E&R is actually what i'd recommend absolutely, because it makes it work and flow even better.

Also in relation to someone asking for more hypodermics to be added:

I gotta clarify the hypodermic thing, as I was very keen on keeping their situation in line with the original game. The RP added a ham fisted stack of 10 to an easily accessible desk in EPA, probably because someone came to the same conclusion and thought to "fix" this.

Thing is, collecting hypos is a mini-game of sorts. There's a limited number and the reason it's like that is because they're the limiting factor on stimpak crafting. And stimpak crafting really does need limiting, as unlimited stimpaks also means unlimited Super Stimpaks (even in the vanilla core game through myron). Easy access to stimpaks (and that IS easy access to them) was one of the main disbalancing factors in the economy. Crafting them was ment to involve the tricky process of gathering hypos (the number of which in the game is fairly low), and it's general balancing on the drug crafting mechanism. As well as it should be, IMO.

Also feedback on why to avoid the weapons buffs (one reason anyway):

As for why easily craftable stimpaks (of any kind) are not a very good idea - stimpaks are ment to be a resource drain, but if you have tons of them you can always heal to full hp-mid combat for 2 AP (provided you have quick pockets) or 4. Resource drain in combat is 2 things - money you need for healing and money you need for ammo. There's pretty much nothing else (you could be using drugs or grenades on a regular basis, but there's no real point to overdo that).

So anything that reliably reduces the drain those 2 present sucks.

It's also why the weapon buffs ultimately don't work well with the system, because short combat = less ammo used = smaller resource drain. This is why the economy balancing system of the mod truly shines if you ditch most of the weapon buffs - it works best if you're not afraid to get into combat and if those combats last a while and there's a lot of shooting and healing going on.

And I also found the whole forum discussion which led me to give up after spending days trying to figure out what the hell happened to make the early game encounters unplayable only to, at the end of it, be told that:

ME:
I wanted to give the other guys a shotgun, but I can't. It went from 12-22 to 15-32 + burst. Dunno if there's something I don't know about its damage formula, but it feels more like a rocket launcher than an entry level ranged weapon... If I give it to Vic he kills 600XP Redding molerats, if I give it to an enemy I have to run from the encounter...

EDIT: Whoa, wait up, it has the same damage and single shot range as combat shotgun does? o.O
A complete idiot, in response:
Same ammo, same basic firing mechanism, and probably the same barrel length. I don't see why the damage wouldn't be about the same.
Then the modder:
Well if you think that burst fire for doublebarrels are making them OP, just disable it (this is separate option in the installer and will stay that way). I'm personally ok being blown off with shotgun at blank range.

While talking about the entry level shotgun, and encounters around the Den. V long discussion before as I spent a better part of the week exploring the problem in insane depth, mapping out the spawn zones, tracking everything that went wrong to cause the early encounters to be unplayable even before modding.

So, in essence - if the stuff is still modular, the best possible advice I have to give is to:

- Just turn off anything related to weapons damage, especially shotguns. You'd need to invent new words to be able to accurately describe how wrong this stuff is. My playtesting notes p clearly state that I had to always turn this stuff off because you couldn't even playtest it with this on. Unless someone made the guy realize what was going on here at a later point and he changed it, this is is probably the most cartoonish example of reasons why people are so suspicious and dismissive of mods in general.
- The economy stuff - p cool, makes it better, scaleable manually.
- The traps and crafting - cooler than you might think at first, especially if you play at an appropriately harsh difficulty setting in terms of economy, enriches the game.
- Gameflow Fixes - You can install the mod just for these if all you want is RP content to be better integrated with the base game, and, like, just better done overall.

Also, I'd post the whole process of plumbing into the depths of insanity with the whole "more realistic and lethal weapons" thing, but I kinda want people to try the mod, not write off the mod, and luckily you can just turn this stuff off. It's a very good read if you want, like, the ultimate: "Why you should know the game you're modding inside and out before you even think of modding it" or more cynically "Why never bother with mods at all" example. But the rest of it isn't that, as unbelievably loony as this stuff is (or was). Everything else is p much the opposite.

But for the hell of it, after mapping out everything, I tracked the problems to a lousy implementation of caravans in the original, combined with messing around with early game weapons, which then makes the thing play almost literally like this :-D :

zones2_zps66b6a83c-jpg.789
 
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blessedCoffee

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Strap Yourselves In
Yet more modder arbitrary "fixes".
If you break into a post nuclear military base, you expect to find some serious gear laying around.
"B-but what about 'muh balance?" Military bases should have sizeable loot in them.
Stimpacks inflicting radiation is also dogshit, considering the fact you will have to use them so often. Really no serious explanation for why this is... Oh, some "lore" shit? Come on...
Even if we take the lore out of the equation, I still disagree with this change to those healing items. It's not a measure which will balance the difficulty of the game, either, because you can casually use the BOS computer in San Fran to decontaminate the main character, free of charge, when you've been dangerously exposed to radiation.
"But Navarro is an end game location, which must be infiltrated first, for you to unlock the BOS facility in SF" Yeah, but people have been doing Navarro runs for years without issues, getting access to Power Armor in the early game. You can finish the "espionage side quest" for Matthew before even entering Klamath, and the game wouldn't have a thing to say about it, it's an open-world, do as you wish.
And what's stopping the player from simply sleeping on the ground until they're back to full HP? I just use the rest option in the Pip-Boy at the beginning, when my best healing items are those healing powders. Losing perception after every use? Nah, man... screw that!
Fallout 1.5 has a lot of locations where you cannot rest, but the classic Fallouts are far more merciful, in this regard.
 

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