Decline Final Dungeons Suck are Ass in 99%

[StaticSpine]

When you are at the end of the game, you already know who the final boss is and want to beat the shit out of him to see those sweet satisfying ending slides. You've done a lot of shit getting there and you're oh so prepared.

But almost always before you're allowed to fight the big baddie you are presented with a long-ass boring final dungeon, castle, or some other shit with more trash mobs, some mini-bosses, and stupid puzzles.

I never got why. It kills the pace and the tension. By the time you get there, you've already done all that stuff to death along your walkthrough. Why put the player in this situation is beyond me.

 

[Nortar]

What is your solution?
The Big Bad should appear in front of you for one final duel the moment you learn of his existence?

My pet peeves are similar though.
What annoys me is not the dungeon before the final showdown, but the loot in the said dungeon with coppers and random trash like it's a fucking starting area.

 

[MerchantKing]

It's simple. Just make the game one single dungeon and put the boss at the end.

 

[Nifft Batuff]

Bosses and final Bosses suck too.

 

[__scribbles__]

But almost always before you're allowed to fight the big baddie you are presented with a long-ass boring final dungeon, castle, or some other shit with more trash mobs, some mini-bosses, and stupid puzzles.

I never got why. It kills the pace and the tension. By the time you get there, you've already done all that stuff to death along your walkthrough. Why put the player in this situation is beyond me.

Because the devs ran out of time/money/ideas/whatever so it ends up either being a rushed copy-paste job or a mess of new elements or mechanics with no build-up or context. It makes sense that the bad guy/group would live in a heavily fortified place, storming it should be climactic and the ultimate test of your abilities and knowledge.

Final dungeons don't suck as a concept and most of them suck because game development with finite resources sucks. They don't have to suck just because most of them do.

 

[Vorark]

I find it to be a recurring problem in those sprawling rpgs that take 2498457 hours to complete. By the time you reach the so called final dungeon you just wanna be done with it, probably the same as the developers.

 

[Poseidon00]

Nah final dungeons are fun. Especially when they have hidden bosses of their own that outshine the final fight.

 

[Sergio]

I feel that this is a very annoying thing in JRPG games, for some reason the developers feel the need to make the final dungeon the longest, most annoying, piece of shit place in the game. Just so when you reach the end, you're more upset with them over whatever the game's antagonist did.

I don't mind a concept of a final dungeon, I mean it's another place to explore, but I hate when it's made as obnoxious as possible on purpose.

 

[Damned Registrations]

I think part of the problem is that dungeons themselves often no longer serve their original purpose. They used to be challenging affairs that required expending finite resources, wearing you down before the final encounter, making it a struggle of your worn out party against the emperor in his place of power. Instead, these days they're just another place to collect loot and xp, and right before you face the boss you save the game, heal everyone to full health and mana, and sure, sell the player some fucking potions while you're at it. At that point, you may as well have stuck the boss right outside town; you'd be just as 'worn down' from strolling out of a nice inn.

 

[deuxhero]

Bosses and final Bosses suck too.

Wasn't the reason for ME3's ending just happening that they thought final bosses were too "gamey"?

 

[Nifft Batuff]

Bosses and final Bosses suck too.

Wasn't the reason for ME3's ending just happening that they thought final bosses were too "gamey"?

The lack of a final boss is the last of the problems of ME3's ending.

 

[KörangarTheMighty]

I like the Icewind Dale approach. Bosses that have little climactic buildup of tension, but as if by providence you just sort of stumble upon them in the middle of some satanic ritual at the last minute, usually at the end of a dungeon, but never feeling like it's "the" end of the dungeon. Both Yxonomei and Revered Brother Poquelin felt this way. I never had an inkling that this was the end of Dorn's Deep or wherever when you find them. Felt like you could keep following their evil down to the very pits of Hell if the game didn't usher you away to the place you needed to be.

 

[StaticSpine]

What is your solution?
The Big Bad should appear in front of you for one final duel the moment you learn of his existence?

No. There should be a build-up throughout the game foreshadowing the final boss. Like say, Frank in FO2, when you realize he's too strong to even try fighting him.
But in the end, when you are ready and know where the boss is hiding, you go there and have a showdown without some damn labyrinths or other bullshit.

I agree, that from a narrative standpoint it's valid that the boss will be in some fortified place with his minions, but from the game perspective it just kills the moment when you are ready to kick his ass but have to slog through some location.

 

[Ol' Willy]

Final donjons are usually filled with the hardest opponents and max assrape encounters, so they give you a clear indication that if you can't get to the end, you may as well don't even try it with the boss

 

[NecroLord]

When you are at the end of the game, you already know who the final boss is and want to beat the shit out of him to see those sweet satisfying ending slides. You've done a lot of shit getting there and you're oh so prepared.

But almost always before you're allowed to fight the big baddie you are presented with a long-ass boring final dungeon, castle, or some other shit with more trash mobs, some mini-bosses, and stupid puzzles.

I never got why. It kills the pace and the tension. By the time you get there, you've already done all that stuff to death along your walkthrough. Why put the player in this situation is beyond me.

Sometimes it is best to make the final boss mysterious and unknowable.
As for the "dungeons", not every final battles/quests should take place in such locations.
Remove trash mobs and just fill the area with different challenges like traps, different bosses/unique enemies, environmental hazards, and so on.
Such an area can serve to prepare you for the final battle.

 

[Falksi]

Sounds like a stamina/skill issue.

 

[StaticSpine]

But almost always before you're allowed to fight the big baddie you are presented with a long-ass boring final dungeon, castle, or some other shit with more trash mobs, some mini-bosses, and stupid puzzles.

I never got why. It kills the pace and the tension. By the time you get there, you've already done all that stuff to death along your walkthrough. Why put the player in this situation is beyond me.

Because the devs ran out of time/money/ideas/whatever so it ends up either being a rushed copy-paste job or a mess of new elements or mechanics with no build-up or context. It makes sense that the bad guy/group would live in a heavily fortified place, storming it should be climactic and the ultimate test of your abilities and knowledge.

Final dungeons don't suck as a concept and most of them suck because game development with finite resources sucks. They don't have to suck just because most of them do.

Fair point but as long as mostly nobody nailed the concept it's almost like saying that planned economy is a good concept, it's just that nobody nailed it yet.

Anyhow, I changed the thread name to be less misleading.

 

[Gangrelrumbler]

What the fuck are you guys smoking? Final dungeons are great. The only problem is that if the game takes too long players are exhausted before they get there. Not every RPG needs to be 100+ hours long, in many cases it just means more pointless filler. Both pathfinder games could be half as long without being less enjoyable. In fact unlike final bosses which are often lackluster final dungeons are pretty well done most of the time. In fact when you take RPG Codex very own top RPG list often the final dugneon is one of the best parts

Endgame spoiler for many games form the top of the list

-Fallout 1: infiltrating Cathedral is just great, speaking past master is fun but nothing feels as good as arming the nuke without him realizing
-Fallout 2: Oil Rig is one of the most iconic locations in the game, from getting there to meeting the prez do the last stand against Horrigan
-Planescape Torment: Shadows might be tiresome but Fortress of Regret is one of the most interesting locations in RPGs out there
-Shadow of Amn: both besieged Suldanessellar and escapade to hell are one of the most memorable parts
-Arcanum: ok, the Void is just ok but Vendigroth Ruins is one of the most interesting locations in the game, great twist too
-Bloodlines: ok, even I won't try to defend the ending, someone run out of money
-New Vegas: assoult on Hoover dam is short and sweet. Probably the closest to the endgame OP would want throwing upity NCR general off the dam is the highlight

If anything games should instead ditch endbosses and make the last dungeon the final challenge instead like Deus Ex did.

 

[NecroLord]

What the fuck are you guys smoking? Final dungeons are great. The only problem is that if the game takes too long players are exhausted before they get there. Not every RPG needs to be 100+ hours long, in many cases it just means more pointless filler. Both pathfinder games could be half as long without being less enjoyable. In fact unlike final bosses which are often lackluster final dungeons are pretty well done most of the time. In fact when you take RPG Codex very own top RPG list often the final dugneon is one of the best parts

Endgame spoiler for many games form the top of the list

-Fallout 1: infiltrating Cathedral is just great, speaking past master is fun but nothing feels as good as arming the nuke without him realizing
-Fallout 2: Oil Rig is one of the most iconic locations in the game, from getting there to meeting the prez do the last stand against Horrigan
-Planescape Torment: Shadows might be tiresome but Fortress of Regret is one of the most interesting locations in RPGs out there
-Shadow of Amn: both besieged Suldanessellar and escapade to hell are one of the most memorable parts
-Arcanum: ok, the Void is just ok but Vendigroth Ruins is one of the most interesting locations in the game, great twist too
-Bloodlines: ok, even I won't try to defend the ending, someone run out of money
-New Vegas: assoult on Hoover dam is short and sweet. Probably the closest to the endgame OP would want throwing upity NCR general off the dam is the highlight

If anything games should instead ditch endbosses and make the last dungeon the final challenge instead like Deus Ex did.

I rather liked Venture Tower in VTMB.
Ming Xiao's temple not so much.

 

[Zanzoken]

Because the devs ran out of time/money/ideas/whatever so it ends up either being a rushed copy-paste job or a mess of new elements or mechanics with no build-up or context. It makes sense that the bad guy/group would live in a heavily fortified place, storming it should be climactic and the ultimate test of your abilities and knowledge.

Final dungeons don't suck as a concept and most of them suck because game development with finite resources sucks. They don't have to suck just because most of them do.

I find it to be a recurring problem in those sprawling rpgs that take 2498457 hours to complete. By the time you reach the so called final dungeon you just wanna be done with it, probably the same as the developers.

I think it's both of these.

Let's say as a developer you think the game should have 5 main areas. It seems like what most do is work on the game in a linear fashion, starting at the beginning and working until they reach the end. Then what often happens is the time and budget (and creative energy) start to run out, leading to a rushed and unsatisfying ending.

Imo this can be fixed by prioritizing areas properly.
It still makes sense to do the starter area first, since if it's not fun then players won't be invested and will probably quit the game.
But the next area that gets developed should be the ending, so that the game is brought to a fun and exciting conclusion.
The least important and lowest priority are the 3 middle areas. As time and resources wane, you can thin these out or maybe even cut one entirely, rather than do a half-assed ending.

This approach is admittedly complex and you have to be careful not to run into a situation where everything is out of whack at the end because you were planning on X, Y, and Z in the middle and now those things are cut.
However I think it's something that can be worked through and would effectively solve the problem of bad ending dungeons / bosses / etc.

 

[Butter]

Something like Dave's Challenge is cool because it satisfies people who want a really tough endgame dungeon, but it's also optional.

 

[Tigranes]

The problem is less with the dungeon, and more with the nature of RPG power curves & system complexity.

Generally, there is far more variance in player power & player strategic behaviour the further along you get in a game. You get an entire game's worth of consumables the player may or may not have kept; all the levelling up decisions and how sub/optimal their party may be; all the learning they've done (or not) about the game systems. So now, it's much harder to know what is an appropriate level of challenge, but also, hard or easy, what kind of encounter design will even lead to an interesting interaction. The only option, the argument goes, is to leave things rather easy and simple, because you can't require players to have mastered top tier build combos and optimised routines in order to finish the game.

An option that I've long thought is far more interesting is where you change the power curve itself. E.g. a Planetscape Torment Benjamin Button where your party gradually loses some of its capabilities maybe in the midgame, and you must use your increased understanding of the game mechanics to compensate. Or an extension of the Mask of the Betrayer where using powerful tools throughout the game builds up some toxin/curse to load increasingly debilitating permanent conditions. It would fit very well with many stories, whereas right now, we get "You have Dark Curse of the Evil Montgomery upon you and you must lift it!!! But also your body feels great you feel so fit & curse gives you cool new powers". But we've rarely seen this attempted, and I expect it'll take a lot to deny players the sweet dopamine of the traditional curve. It's hard to ask slot machine designers to get rid of the jackpot.

 

[almondblight]

Bosses and final Bosses suck too.

The opposite. Remove all trash mobs, make all encounters difficult handcrafted fights.

 

[luj1]

Can't say that I agree

There are more good final dungeons than bad ones

Maybe if you said tutorial dungeons I would agree

 

[rojay]

The problem is less with the dungeon, and more with the nature of RPG power curves & system complexity.

Generally, there is far more variance in player power & player strategic behaviour the further along you get in a game. You get an entire game's worth of consumables the player may or may not have kept; all the levelling up decisions and how sub/optimal their party may be; all the learning they've done (or not) about the game systems. So now, it's much harder to know what is an appropriate level of challenge, but also, hard or easy, what kind of encounter design will even lead to an interesting interaction. The only option, the argument goes, is to leave things rather easy and simple, because you can't require players to have mastered top tier build combos and optimised routines in order to finish the game.

An option that I've long thought is far more interesting is where you change the power curve itself. E.g. a Planetscape Torment Benjamin Button where your party gradually loses some of its capabilities maybe in the midgame, and you must use your increased understanding of the game mechanics to compensate. Or an extension of the Mask of the Betrayer where using powerful tools throughout the game builds up some toxin/curse to load increasingly debilitating permanent conditions. It would fit very well with many stories, whereas right now, we get "You have Dark Curse of the Evil Montgomery upon you and you must lift it!!! But also your body feels great you feel so fit & curse gives you cool new powers". But we've rarely seen this attempted, and I expect it'll take a lot to deny players the sweet dopamine of the traditional curve. It's hard to ask slot machine designers to get rid of the jackpot.

It's hard to imagine a crpg that doesn't buy into the whole "the player's progress through the plot is motivated by incremental power upgrades" whether through "level ups" or just acquiring more and/or better equipment.

It's a really interesting idea and got me thinking about a game that's set over a short period of time - say 48 hours or so. The player has a hard deadline to do something about a THING that's happening in 2 days. Going balls to the wall will tire you and make you less effective physically and mentally, but if you sleep to get your shit together, you may be wasting time better spent on the ultimate goal. Seems like doing something along those lines would allow you to reward the player with equipment upgrades and make it feel like the traditional gameplay loop but as time passes and the player exerts more energy, "de-buffs" start having more and more of an impact on performance. I haven't really thought this through and I'm not sure if that's what you're talking about but maybe it could work.