EA's new RPG: Project Grey Project

[MisterStone]

Here's some more for ya Chuckles:

When you say the rest, generally it's excluding whatever you're referring to genius. Like if I said I hope the rest of the world isn't as fucking dim-witted as you, that doesn't include you in the rest part. Now pay up for your lesson in dialogue, bitch. I need some sort of compensation for schooling your ass and endangering my intellect just by trying to talk to you.

OK, you're right, I shouldn't have said that China, India and other developing nations "are the rest of the world". I should have said that they "constitute the majority of the world's population".

The point being: when someone like you, part of a small minority of people living in developing countries, complains about jobs or resources going to a place like China, you are whining because the shaky ivory tower that you live in is being taken down just a few notches so things in the REST of the world can get to improve a bit.

So, you got to point out semantic error I made in a single sentence, and I got to point out, once again, that you are a dumbass hypocrite with a delusional world-view. Sounds like a fair trade to me!

Woo hoo, another win-win situation!

 

[HardCode]

It only makes sense for Asians to make the games, since they comprise the largest population of game players ...

More like the largest population of software piraters.

 

[Azarkon]

More like the largest population of software piraters.

That too.

But that's just a manifestation of economic status. Japan & S. Korea, for example, are no more plagued by software piracy than the US.

 

[LaDoushe]

Damn, this thread has derailed

Anyway, a question about the game itself. Wasn't the Grey Company another name for the fellowship of the ring? Gandalf being "Gandalf the Grey" and the rest of the team being his followers, more or less. The top shot on the art section looks like moria, the middle rohan, and the bottom is basically an urukhai? Somebody who's in the know (orthanc guy) please confirm or deny.

My guess is this is some sort of sequel to the other LOTR rpg, and they are just waiting for the rights to clear. Or they are just uncreative.

PS. M&B shows us that pretty much any sort of programming stereotyping is pretty much bull shit. Just be thankful armagan wants to sell to the american market, as the upcoming chinese devs will hopefully want to do, thus providing more possible avenues of innovation. Although I will agree that the Japanese precedent isn't particularly good.

 

[Nog Robbin]

The artwork looks ok, but nothing inspiring as it is hardly original. Having read *some* of the forum content there's a hell of a lot of people wanting (or appearing to want) something like another Fable :S Sounds like many are keen on the idea of a set protagonist as well - no ability for the player to create their own totally unique and individual character.
Have to wait and see, but I can't say I hold out for much from this one at this stage. Will monitor occasionally to see if anything new and interesting comes to live on the main site.

 

[Old Scratch]

OK, you're right, I shouldn't have said that China, India and other developing nations "are the rest of the world". I should have said that they "constitute the majority of the world's population".

The point being: when someone like you, part of a small minority of people living in developing countries, complains about jobs or resources going to a place like China, you are whining because the shaky ivory tower that you live in is being taken down just a few notches so things in the REST of the world can get to improve a bit.

I'm completely aware of the points you, and your partner in crime, Professor Corporate Cock Sucker have been attempting to make, but the problem is they're nothing but weak attempts to metamorphasize the situation and unjustifiably put it in in a positive light.

I'll try to put it simply for you:

Me = American Worker
American Workers - Jobs = Unemployed Americans
Unemployed Americans = Widespread Poverty in America

When we're losing employment opportunities at an escalating rate, coupled with the massive amounts of immigration we have here, how long do you think it will take before our economy is totally fucked? Why am I supposed to believe it's good for an American company that has become what they are on the backs of Americans to engage in practices which will inevitably fuck the people that made them rich over?

I'll admit my stance is based largely on self-interest, which isn't exactly an insane concept when you're not a brainwashed imbecile. BUT what you're so anxious to dress up as a great opportunity for the Chinese at the expense of Americans, and yes, the rest of the world is bullshit and does more harm in the long-run than good, for everyone except the few fat fucking execs at EA and maybe some of their investors that are looking to get even richer.

I'd be perfectly happy if there were Chinese developers making their own games, but in this situation, that is not the case. They're being employed through outsourcing firms, and seeing far less of the profits than the potential sales of a game could provide if they were developing it without the middle-man. If they're putting in the work, they should be seeing the same salaries that developers in America would be making, under the same humane work conditions. Unfortunately - stuck in the shitty outsourcing system working through a middle-man who's concerned about staying in his American masters good graces, they won't be, and EA is taking advantage of that.

You seem to be assuming that any jobs for the Chinese are good which may appear to be accurate, but it isn't in this case in the long-term if you bothered to give it just a shred of thought. It could be true that they may be earning a bit more than say the average factory worker there who's working under a U.S. company, but it's still probably miniscule to what they should be making. In reality, they're just getting locked into a system that will ultimately limit economic progression there and keep the average Chinese citizen in poverty. You can go on trying to imply EA is shipping jobs there in part to help them out, but you'd continue to be just as wrong as you have been all along.

Now, as to why it's unfair to the rest of the world? The corporations in a lot of nations aren't quite as fucking greedy and unloyal as American companies often are. Take China's neighbor, Japan for example. They'll continue trying to employ people from their home countries in development jobs until the point when they're no longer able to compete with U.S. corporations like EA and have to turn to outsourcing development jobs themselves, leading to less opportunities for their people. That's of course only a possibility, but not an unlikely scenario.

With all of the above I'm not going to support EA by giving them my money in the future as long as they continue down this road. Bitch about it and continue to attempt(poorly) to dismiss my lack of willingness to support them all you want, but it's not happening. I never said I'd look down on anyone who did continue to buy their games though.

By the way, did you fucking join this board just to whine because you've just discovered everyone doesn't have the same view as you, or what? You've got roughly 8 posts which have been dedicated to little more than being a mindless douche and making an ass out of yourself in this very thread.

So, you got to point out semantic error I made in a single sentence, and I got to point out, once again, that I'm a dumbass hypocrite with a delusional world-view. Sounds like a fair trade to me!

Woo hoo, another win-win situation!

Fixed it for ya, and you're welcome.

 

[DarkSign]

Good god this was a waste of a thread.

 

[Human Shield]

Me = American Worker
American Workers - Jobs = Unemployed Americans
Unemployed Americans = Widespread Poverty in America

Did the loss of millions of farming jobs create widespread poverty?

The loss of unneeded jobs is advancement not poverty. Destroying jobs is progress.

Labor shifts, it is called productivity. Machines put people out of the job because it was cheaper, trade to other countries is the same thing, same thing for less cost is advancing productivity.

People cry the end whenever there is a shift, that the monster of increased productivity will mean less jobs for everyone while the reality is that once it grows industries expand and hire more people (that now have higher wages). The only time it will stop is when customers don't want lower priced and higher quality goods, aka never.

Chinese have the same effect as machines and technology. To argue otherwise is to say that higher production costs are good for an economy, to make cars by hand with 1000s of people is better.

 

[crufty]

Since we're doing bullets:
a) re: the evil EA. EA doesn't drive tanks over the chinese populace
b) re: outsourcing. adapt, die, or run for office
c) re: Grey: The RPG...too bad it's not an RPG featuring this
grey. Which would BE AWESOME. Read the comic to find out why.
d) re: why jprgs suck. Generalizing widely, and perhaps incorrectly, but generalizing nonetheless: rpgs would be better if the developers focused on their own cultural themes rather than strange american ones. not explaining myself very well, but for example, look at Cloud from final fantasy. Ack, ruined jrpgs for ever. Now all lead pcs have big swords, spikey hair and spunky upbeat attitudes. Yet--how many other japanese artforms have lead characters with big swords and spikey hair? Where in Japanese history does that fit in? In my very, very limted experience, no where.
e) best console rpg ever is shadows of the colossus. Not really an rpg I guess, but damn it was as close as I've seen to one.
f) the race of the development staff...err..??? Isn't art and style direction the result of the creative director, and not who draws it?

 

[Old Scratch]

Good god this was a waste of a thread.

Pretty much.

Did the loss of millions of farming jobs create widespread poverty?

It put the farmers who were caught in the blast in poverty. Do similar circumatances need to spread to the general population?

The loss of unneeded jobs is advancement not poverty. Destroying jobs is progress.

Progress towards what, having a larger poulation of unemployed people? Did you even think before you wrote that?

Labor shifts, it is called productivity. Machines put people out of the job because it was cheaper, trade to other countries is the same thing, same thing for less cost is advancing productivity.

Productivity towards a select number of corporations getting richer at the expense of American citizens. What's your point? That everyone is supposed to be happy for them?

People cry the end whenever there is a shift, that the monster of increased productivity will mean less jobs for everyone while the reality is that once it grows industries expand and hire more people (that now have higher wages). The only time it will stop is when customers don't want lower priced and higher quality goods, aka never.

You sound like an AI program. Can I call you HAL?

Name me a company that outsourced a large number of their jobs, that later opened up an even greater number of jobs with better wages that they had outsourced from the country where they reside. You won't be able to, so I'd hardly call that "the reality".

Do you really think EA will pay back their U.S. customers by lowering the cost of their games as a result of the increased productivity from outsourcing? Nope, it will go towards buying some executives a couple more Summer homes and that's probably it. It may even allow them to shit out an extra couple games a year, made by Chinese workers through outsourcing firms of course. Mmm, progress!

Chinese have the same effect as machines and technology. To argue otherwise is to say that higher production costs are good for an economy, to make cars by hand with 1000s of people is better.

What I think you're suggesting is that lowered production costs are good for an economoy if businesses in turn reduce the prices of their products, have greater contributions in taxes, and pay their current employees higher salaries. History has shown that they very rarely do that though as it defeats the purpose. If 90% of the software development jobs in the U.S. were outsourced to China or India right now, you could be sure we still wouldn't see a reduction in the cost of those finished products.

Look, I deliberately don't even use those self-checkout things at the grocery store, because they threaten jobs and I'm not so important that I can't wait in line. If I have a choice between going with a mom and pop establishment over a large commercial chain, I'll usually go with the former. Even though I own a Japanese car, I hunted around and made sure it was manufactured in America, by American workers. I don't buy albums from Wal-Mart because of their shitty censorship policy. I don't buy games from EA or Gamestop because of their reduction in PC shelf space, and their pushy trade-in policies. The point being, there have been many businesses I don't support for one reason or another and I tend to put a bit of thought into the purchases I make. My choices in who I choose or choose not to give my money to isn't really up for debate by a few random, gluttonous shmucks on the Internet.

Arguing that a company makes more money by doing things I find repugnant doesn't really fucking matter to me in the long run. Just like I don't buy shitty uninspired games just because they've had a lot of sales. Now, why don't you three get together, start a discussion in the General Forum(where shit like this belongs), where you can sit around circle-jerking and fawning all over financially successful corporations who engage in questionable business practices to your hearts content?

b) re: outsourcing. adapt, die, or run for office

Or the simple solution: make the occasional effort not to buy from companies who engage in outsourcing, especially when there are competitors that don't, and/or create a buzz about it. It's really not all that difficult.

 

[crufty]

Look, I deliberately don't even use those self-checkout things at the grocery store, because they threaten jobs and I'm not so important that I can't wait in line. If I have a choice between going with a mom and pop establishment over a large commercial chain, I'll usually go with the former.

I hear you regarding outsourcing. It sucks. But self-checkout things are the BOMB, esp. at Walmart.

I used to think along your line--why do self check out? Walmart pays people to do my check out for me, and in buying things at Walmart, to some degree, I'm paying them too...so might as well use that resource, right?

But then, the folks at walmart invariably had great difficulties in seeing me through a succesful checkout. The last straw came with this short, fat checkout clerk who did not speak english. When she would weigh my produce, her massive gut would spill out all over the scale as she leaned in close to type in the produce numbers. When I noticed--somehow I had purchased a pound and a half bananna--I asked her to reweigh the produce. But, due to language barriers, she did not understand that to do so, I wanted her to BACK UP OFF THE SCALE.

Ever since then...self-checkout.

 

[sheek]

Me = American Worker
American Workers - Jobs = Unemployed Americans
Unemployed Americans = Widespread Poverty in America

Did the loss of millions of farming jobs create widespread poverty?

The loss of unneeded jobs is advancement not poverty. Destroying jobs is progress.

Labor shifts, it is called productivity. Machines put people out of the job because it was cheaper, trade to other countries is the same thing, same thing for less cost is advancing productivity.

Cheaper =! better.

And I think you don't know what productivity means.

I can make money without producing anything... by gambling in a casino, by selling drugs outside schools or by doing a hostile takeover and stealing all the pensions.

None of that makes the world a better place but it's stuff that makes up a large amount of the world's 'economic activity' today.

 

[OverrideB1]

I don't know how big a "problem" outsourcing is in the US but here in the UK it's starting to bite. Many companies have outsourced their call-centres to India where workers are paid a pittance in comparison to UK workers, and where they are forced to work longer hours than would be acceptable under UK law.

Peugot have just closed a large factory not a million miles from where I live -- putting thousands of workers on the dole (social security for our colonial cousins) -- and moved the production to one of the Slavic nations. Where, of course, the workers are paid a pittance in comparison to French or English workers, where they don't have the protection of French anti-sacking laws or representation by English Trade Unions, where the mention of a pension results in the phrase "huh?" (or "you're fired"), health and safety practices are a whole boat-load more relaxed than elsewhere in the EU... I could go on, but you get the point.

Companies do not outsource work to "assist" poorer nations -- they do it purely and simply to line their already bulging pockets with even more cash. Only a complete and utter fucktard would think they did it for any other reason.

Plain and simple, bottom line. Companies outsource so that they can increase their profit-margins -- cheaper goods sold at the same high markup as before. If they gave a solitary damn', they'd reduce prices to reflect their lower production costs. Anyone noticed how much cheaper Nike goods have gotten since they started employing children in Indonesia, China, and most recently Vietnam? Thought not.

So, EA outsourcing tasks to China isn't going to make any Chinese wealthier; it isn't going to result in cheaper retail prices either. The only people who'll suffer are the (now) unemployed Americans who used to produce EA's games and the over-worked and under-paid Chinese workers. The only winners will be the fat, bloated bastards who sit on EA's board of directors who can pat themselves on the back and buy their wives a nice bauble with their extra profits

 

[sheek]

I don't know how big a "problem" outsourcing is in the US but here in the UK it's starting to bite. Many companies have outsourced their call-centres to India where workers are paid a pittance in comparison to UK workers, and where they are forced to work longer hours than would be acceptable under UK law.

Peugot have just closed a large factory not a million miles from where I live -- putting thousands of workers on the dole (social security for our colonial cousins) -- and moved the production to one of the Slavic nations. Where, of course, the workers are paid a pittance in comparison to French or English workers, where they don't have the protection of French anti-sacking laws or representation by English Trade Unions, where the mention of a pension results in the phrase "huh?" (or "you're fired"), health and safety practices are a whole boat-load more relaxed than elsewhere in the EU... I could go on, but you get the point.

I heard about that. That UK factory apparently was one of the most productive and efficient in Europe.

The problem normally with 'outsourcing' is not with any specific industry you're talking about but with the environment around it.

If governments are not ready to consistently support and defend the whole industry their country depends on from greedy multinationals then little by little it falls apart. The companies who make the components shut down and they have to be imported (adding to transport cost), fewer young people train to go into that sector (smaller skill pool) etc. Factories close so there's less need for infrastructure and skilled labor. It's a vicious spiral downward.

 

[Oarfish]

I heard about that. That UK factory apparently was one of the most productive and efficient in Europe

Yeah, but when you close a factory in the UK, the ex employees don't tend to torch cars in the street. Shame its not closer to an election, or the Labour party would have bought them off.

 

[MisterStone]

Companies do not outsource work to "assist" poorer nations -- they do it purely and simply to line their already bulging pockets with even more cash. Only a complete and utter fucktard would think they did it for any other reason.

I never said that companies did it because they WANT to help out. I said that one effect of outsourcing to less developed countries is development in those countries. Of course the companies want to make money... what the hell else do you think drives development and creates jobs?

Plain and simple, bottom line. Companies outsource so that they can increase their profit-margins -- cheaper goods sold at the same high markup as before. If they gave a solitary damn', they'd reduce prices to reflect their lower production costs.

The only winners will be the fat, bloated bastards who sit on EA's board of directors who can pat themselves on the back and buy their wives a nice bauble with their extra profits

Those evil bastard capitalists! How dare they try to make more money! They need to be injecting money and resources directly into industrial development and huge social programs to make life better for everyone. I mean, it worked for all those communist block countries, right?

Despite all of the whining on this thread, no one has explained what they think a good "solution" for outsourcing is. As someone noted earlier on in the thread, economies shift, industries change, and sitting around and demanding that the government or consumers save everyone's ass and provide them with high-paying benefit laden jobs exactly like the ones that used to be there isn't going to accomplish anything... except possibly make one's country go broke, if the government is dumb enough to play into this.

Anyway, like I said, boycot all you want. It's your right... I just don't happen to believe its the right thing to do, and I don't think its going to accomplish anything.

 

[OverrideB1]

Good luck with your world-view Mister Stone -- it might change when your company outsources your job to foreign climes.

• Do you honestly, for one second, think that there will be additional economic improval in China as a result of EA's outsourcing?
• Are those Chinese workers going to be paid a fair wage?
• Do you think that -- for argument's sake -- if India had offered cheaper labour than China, the benevolent suits at EA would still be outsourcing in China?
• Do you think, for one second, that benefits to Chinese workers featured in any of the discussions that EA had before outsourcing to the cheapest possible country?

I'll give you a clue -- the answer starts with "N" and ends in "O".

When your tax-rate screams through the roof because the bloated plutocrats are using every dodge in the book to avoid paying taxes and the government has to provide some support to prevent a countrywide riot by all those unemployed bodies whose jobs have been outsourced, will it still be a good idea that the companies outsourced the jobs? Because it's you -- the average worker -- who will have to foot the bill for any social programmes that need to be put in place -- the well-to-do will not be paying a red cent in extra tax, or any tax at all if they have any worthwhile lawyers.

See, it's all very well slating communism as a knee-jerk reaction to any criticism of the "American Way". Sure, communism sucked -- but unbridled capitalism sucks just as badly when it comes to screwing the working class.

Is there an alternative?
Well, shutting down all the corporate tax-avoidance loopholes and fairly taxing the wealthy in accordance with their income would be a start.
Nationalising certain key industries (water, electricity, gas, power) and using tax revenue to drive down the costs of those non-profit utilities for everyone would be another good step.
As would the universal health-care your governments keep on promising but failing to deliver.
Tax-breaks for companies that don't outsource and keep jobs in the US, or a tax on companies that do outsource.

"Communism!!" I hear you scream -- screwing over those who are successful in favour of the little guy. Well, I have news for you -- revolutions always start with the little guys, the ones who're pissed off at being shat upon from a great height. It happened in England, it happened in France, it happened in Russia... Hell, it's even happened in the good old US of A once.

 

[Old Scratch]

I hear you regarding outsourcing. It sucks. But self-checkout things are the BOMB, esp. at Walmart.

I don't blame you, checkout lines at Wal-Mart can be quite a pain in the ass. They never seem to have enough people working the registers either.

Those evil bastard capitalists! How dare they try to make more money! They need to be injecting money and resources directly into industrial development and huge social programs to make life better for everyone. I mean, it worked for all those communist block countries, right?

Ah yes, I was waiting for that. The old, "if you try to hinder capitalism you must be a commie" argument. Wake up chubs! Capitalism has never run completely unchecked in the States or any other prosperous democracy with decent living conditions for that matter. Why do you think we have government sanctioned organizations like the FDA and EPA? Do child labor laws ring a bell? At a certain point, the fact this is a Democracy and the will of the people comes first, inevitably reigns in capitalistic pursuits. If you don't like it, too fucking bad but don't pull some knee-jerk bullshit like claiming anything that hinders capitalism must be communist.

Despite all of the whining on this thread, no one has explained what they think a good "solution" for outsourcing is. As someone noted earlier on in the thread, economies shift, industries change, and sitting around and demanding that the government or consumers save everyone's ass and provide them with high-paying benefit laden jobs exactly like the ones that used to be there isn't going to accomplish anything... except possibly make one's country go broke, if the government is dumb enough to play into this.

A good solution is not to outsource. Are you gonna argue that EA is in a state of financial turmoil? They're one of the most profitable corporations in this industry, hell in any industry! You make it sound as if they've turned to outsourcing just to make ends meet or some nonsense. Most corporations that outsource don't need to, they just want even greater profits, consequences be damned. And yes, I think everyone grasps the concept that businesses exist to make money, that doesn't by default make them justified in everything they do...in the minds of rational people at least.

It may be in someone elses personal best interest to ass-rape you, that doesn't mean you're expected to comply, agree, or financially support them in that pursuit, does it?

Anyway, like I said, boycot all you want. It's your right... I just don't happen to believe its the right thing to do, and I don't think its going to accomplish anything.

That's fine, most likely there will always be people perceptive enough to keep you and themselves from getting fucked over at least through the course of your life time. The fact you choose to bitch about it is what makes you a fool though.

 

[DarkSign]

The world its attempting to come to overall equilibrium. For those of us in the more developed nation, it sucks that such equilibrium will take hundreds of years (if ever) to be achieved.

Our only hope is to use cultural imperialism and imposed democracy to bring them to our level before they drag us down to theirs j/k ?

 

[crufty]

The flipside of outsourcing is it's also cheaper for YOU to make games. Lets say you are looking to produce a copy-cat "B" title, at 10% of the AAA budget.

So how hard is it for EA to dump $5 million to make the latest FIFA? No problem. You, a no-name off the street, raising $500k? Big problem.

Ea discovers inexpensive overseas labor. $5 million game now costs $500k. Now your costs are $50k. Hey now...hello competition!