EA's new RPG: Project Grey Project

[Whipporowill]

From the "Next Generation RPG" sentence, I think we'll be having another FPS with a "RPG felling".

Or just that it's for xbox 360 and PS3?

 

[Sirbolt]

FUCK ME! That "diary" was gay! Are we supposed to be excited by this? Cunts.

 

[Old Scratch]

It only makes sense for Asians to make the games, since they comprise the largest population of game players.

Wtf kinda naive statment is that Azarkon? Others have already pointed out to you that the biggest video game market(like many other consumer related markets) is North America. Now that you've been corrected, do you now feel only the U.S and Canada should make games? I'll answer for you: fuck no.

The Chinese, as far as I know, aren't big on games either. The average Chinese citizen probably can't afford them with the wide-spread poverty they have in that country. That's why EA is outsourcing there; they can get away with paying slave wages and unethical treatment of their employees...not because they give a fuck about appealing to that market. EA's main aim as an American company -- as it always has been-- is to get westerners to buy their games, only they don't wanna pay them to make them anymore. Without dwelling on the political implications too much, as it's not really appropriate in this forum, garbage like that will only end up hurting the quality of games.

(and it's proven that Asian companies know better what these players want)

This isn't a case where you can lump them all under one big "Asian" umbrella. The games average Korean gamers prefer(Blizzard is huge there for example) are quite different from those of average Japanese gamers. The games Korean developers make bear more similarity to western games, mainly PC games, because consoles were outlawed or something for a time there I believe.

 

[OverrideB1]

If that video was intended to get me excited about the game -- it failed miserably. The only thing I wanted to do after watching it was to beat the creative tattoo'd guy with an iron bar until he screamed "I admit it -- I have no sense of humour".

I shall watch future developments in the hope that the next video diary actually tells us something about the fragging game -- although the fact the EA's sticky little fingers are all over it makes me fear the worst...

 

[Drakron]

Ha ha ha ...

Sorry Old Scratch but no, in terms of PCs then yes NA is the biggest market but PC games are global.

In consoles because of region locks and the PAL and NTSC diferences there are 3 major regions and in terms of market the JPN region is the biggest one.

In terms of gamming in asia it was Korea first followed by Japan and then China but China been moving up very fast in MMORPGs and its pretty muck Korea-China-Japan these days but that is global gaming and Japan PC market seens very small.

Another thing is the NTSC region market cannot grow, it reached it peek as the PAL region market is the one with the greatest growth potencial and that is why MS Xbox stategy baffles me ... they cannot win in Japan since Sony have homefield advantage as they can steal their thunder in PAL since Sony always neglect it but what they do?

Try to beat Sony in Japan.

 

[Old Scratch]

Ha ha ha ...

Sorry Old Scratch but no in terms of PCs then yes NA is the biggest market but PC games are global.

What are you laughing about? You realize EA doesn't just make console games right?

In consoles because of region locks and the PAL and NTSC diferences there are 3 major regions and in terms of market the JPN region is the biggest one.

No it isn't. The U.S. alone destroys the Japanese console market:

http://www.gamesindustry.biz/content_page.php?section_name=pub&aid=1318

According to the report, which was compiled by analysts Jeffery Vilensky and Jonathan Cramer, the USA will continue to lead the markets with 71 million units of hardware by 2005. Europe will have an installed base of 50 million, while Japan brings up the rear with 32 million.

Why do you think most console game and hardware manufacturers aim their products at North America? Because they couldn't survive without that market. As Microsoft has proven with the Xbox - Japan isn't necessary for success in console gaming. The U.S is though. Also important to keep in mind that the U.S. has more in common as far as gaming preferences with most other countries in the world than Japan or even most of Asia does. The European and Oceania markets are extremely similar to NA in terms of preference for games, and they're nothing to scoff at. Given that knowledge, it obliterates Azrakron's claim that "Asians" know how to make games with the broadest market appeal.

The US by itself is close behind the entire Asian video game market in size. Video games relevant to this discussion that is, it's actually far ahead if you include online card games and the like.

http://www.pwc.com/extweb/industry....3e1885256ce8006c6ed6?opendocument&vendor=none

Asia/Pacific, the largest market, at $10.1 billion in 2004, is projected to maintain its leadership, growing by 18.0 percent on a compound annual rate through 2009, reaching $23.1 billion. The United States, the second-largest market in 2004, with $8.2 billion in revenues, is projected to grow by 12.9 percent compounded annually to reach $15.1 billion in 2009.

What does the television standard have to do with anything anyway Drakron? I' don't see your point there.

In terms of gamming in asia it was Korea first followed by Japan and then China but China been moving up very fast in MMORPGs and its pretty muck Korea-China-Japan these days but that is global gaming and Japan PC market seens very small.

The Chinese game market is pretty damn small on the global scale of things, I didn't argue that they're competely insignificant as a part of the Asian market though. Not sure why you even brought that up. Unless you're trying to assert that because they're Asian and do buy video games that they should be entitled to be made the developers of all future games for the entire non-Asian world, like Azrakron was implying. If so, that makes you a stupid motherfucker.

Another thing is the NTSC region market cannot grow, it reached it peek as the PAL region market is the one with the greatest growth potencial and that is why MS Xbox stategy baffles me ... they cannot win in Japan since Sony have homefield advantage as they can steal their thunder in PAL since Sony always neglect it but what they do? Try to beat Sony in Japan.

You know there are convertors for consoles right? They're flexible, TV standard doesn't matter. As Japan switches to PAL, I'd assume Microsoft will switch the systems they manufacture for sale there to that standard. I'm going to continue to assume you're not a complete moron and that I'm the one misinterpreting your argument on that.

Congratulations in dragging this discussion into a boring market analysis direction and failing to counter any of what I said with facts though. Great job champ!

 

[bryce777]

http://www.ea.com/official/projectgraycompany/

The site is pretty bare at present, apart from some brand new forums, a little art, and a completely inane video diary that tells you absolutely nothing.

EDIT: Apparently the game will include Sims2 tech! Yippee!

Looks like they read about my suggestion for a sim dungeon.

 

[Azarkon]

It only makes sense for Asians to make the games, since they comprise the largest population of game players.

"The four largest markets for computer and video games are the United States, Japan, Australia and the United Kingdom. Other significant markets include Spain, Germany, South Korea, France, and Italy." From Wikipedia

Oceania has always had a larger market that Eastasia

I see that you didn't bother to quote the next tidbit:

"Both India and China are considered emerging markets in the video game industry and sales are expected to rise significantly in the coming years."

Moreover, stating that the four largest markets for computer and video games are the US, Japan, Australia, and UK fails to mention the exact numbers in each. Do you know whether Japan's number of gamers trumps both Australia and the UK? Or whether Japan + South Korea + China + Singapore + <insert random Asian countries here> trumps the US?

You're arguing in terms of nations. I'm arguing in terms of continents. That is the first discrepancy.

The second discrepancy lies in the definition of a market. I surmirse that the *largest number of gamers* are in Asia, and should've made that clear instead of using market. However, that doesn't mean the greatest purchasing power is there, due to monetary discrepancies. Given this, I'll grant you that the US likely has a greater market share than any other country in existence. However, what is true now is not necessarily true in the future. Demographics are ultimately going to be significant in determining market size if we assume that China, et. all will emerge as first world nations.

EA's decision is no different than the decision of any number of companies looking to both increase their market penetration in Asia and shifting their base of development there. The former is driven by the understanding that Asia, being the most populous area of the earth, is also likely to become the most gigantic consumer market. The latter is driven by the wage discrepancies, which makes hiring Asian developers alot cheaper than American ones. These two factors are mutually exclusive: once the wages are equalized, the latter advantage fades away, but the former will dominate. Either way, Asian developers provide benefits on both ends.

Next up is the concern of market penetration. I've argued this before, but I stand by the statement that Western penetration of the Asian market in terms of games is PATHETIC compared to the vice versa (the only exception to this seems to be cell phone games/handheld games, ie if you argue that Tetris is played across continents, I won't even try to argue). I know of only a few Western companies that are successful in Asia, the foremost being Blizzard. Every one else pretty much sucks and there's a simple reason for it: Asian gamers play, predominantly, three types of games: strategy games, Asian RPGs (~JRPGs) and MMORPGs. Western gamers tend to focus on action, sports, and shooters.

Now that you've been corrected, do you now feel only the U.S and Canada should make games? I'll answer for you: fuck no.

What kind of idiotic insinuation is that? When did I say that *only* Chinese developers should make games? The whole premises of this thread was that EA hiring Asian developers = GHEY, which is completely assinine. Asian developers are cheaper, they make better art (at least for MMORPGs), game development doesn't require transfer of huge technology bases, and Asian developers apparently have the know-how to attract both Western and Eastern audiences. Guess what's the rational course of action in a global economy in terms of who to hire?

Take a good look at yourself and ask whether you're objecting to the hiring of Asian developers on the basis of xenophobia rather than rational decision making.

 

[Zomg]

I guess EA is going to carpet bomb the CRPG genre with all the production value that forty million bucks worth of outsourced and H1-B labor can buy.

 

[bryce777]

Well, but asians do suck. At least, they suck at providing the kind of games that I like. Crossculture shit only has a certain appeal to certain niche groups. Where is the great legacy of chinese and korean games? Of japanese games? And don't give me that final fantasy bullshit.

 

[bryce777]

I guess EA is going to carpet bomb the CRPG genre with all the production value that forty million bucks worth of outsourced and H1-B labor can buy.

THANKS YOU FOR HELP. HERE IS REWARD COOKIE>

 

[Crichton]

Final Fantasy Tactics and Tactics Ogre are both excellent skirmish tactics games and they're made by gooks. Most of the rest of it seems to be trash, but that's also true of most of what's made over here. I've played two of the early final fantasy games and they were mildly amusing, the later ones all seem to be refuse. I tried playing the demo that "prince of qin" game and it was complete diablo-clone trash. I've heard asians really love those MMO games, and if that's what they'll be developing over there, then may the good lord bless and keep them..... far away from me.

 

[sheek]

Well, but asians do suck. At least, they suck at providing the kind of games that I like. Crossculture shit only has a certain appeal to certain niche groups. Where is the great legacy of chinese and korean games? Of japanese games? And don't give me that final fantasy bullshit.

What is there something inherently 'Western' about RPGs? I know that's not what you're saying but why would Asians make worse games... That PnP roleplaying is much less common over there (I have no idea if that's the case)?

 

[Azarkon]

Well, but asians do suck. At least, they suck at providing the kind of games that I like. Crossculture shit only has a certain appeal to certain niche groups. Where is the great legacy of chinese and korean games? Of japanese games? And don't give me that final fantasy bullshit.

They're on console. You almost can't be a console gamer these days without touching Asian games. Go to gamespot or any other popular gaming site and look at the % of games that come out of Asia. Now take a look at the top 50 selling list of Japan someone posted a while back and see if there's any US games on it.

 

[bryce777]

Well, but asians do suck. At least, they suck at providing the kind of games that I like. Crossculture shit only has a certain appeal to certain niche groups. Where is the great legacy of chinese and korean games? Of japanese games? And don't give me that final fantasy bullshit.

They're on console. You almost can't be a console gamer these days without touching Asian games. Go to gamespot or any other popular gaming site and look at the % of games that come out of Asia. Now take a look at the top 50 selling list of Japan someone posted a while back and see if there's any US games on it.

No shit, sherlock, and they all suck. They appeal to 10 year olds and other asians and that's about it.

Out of the thousands of games released, maybe 2 would semi interest me.

 

[bryce777]

Well, but asians do suck. At least, they suck at providing the kind of games that I like. Crossculture shit only has a certain appeal to certain niche groups. Where is the great legacy of chinese and korean games? Of japanese games? And don't give me that final fantasy bullshit.

What is there something inherently 'Western' about RPGs? I know that's not what you're saying but why would Asians make worse games... That PnP roleplaying is much less common over there (I have no idea if that's the case)?

The basic isea is that it would be ludicrous to try and make a game that appeals to a vastly alien culture in a completely different language. At least, it is when it comes to plot elements, story, etc. etc.

 

[Azarkon]

No shit, sherlock, and they all suck. They appeal to 10 year olds and other asians and that's about it.

Out of the thousands of games released, maybe 2 would semi interest me.

Well then I guess the vast majority of console gamers in the US are either Asian or under ten years old.

 

[bryce777]

No shit, sherlock, and they all suck. They appeal to 10 year olds and other asians and that's about it.

Out of the thousands of games released, maybe 2 would semi interest me.

Well then I guess the vast majority of console gamers in the US are either Asian or under ten years old.

Just go to the TES boards to find out what they are like.

 

[Old Scratch]

You're arguing in terms of nations. I'm arguing in terms of continents. That is the first discrepancy.

The second discrepancy lies in the definition of a market. I surmirse that the *largest number of gamers* are in Asia, and should've made that clear instead of using market. However, that doesn't mean the greatest purchasing power is there, due to monetary discrepancies. Given this, I'll grant you that the US likely has a greater market share than any other country in existence. However, what is true now is not necessarily true in the future. Demographics are ultimately going to be significant in determining market size if we assume that China, et. all will emerge as first world nations.

EA's decision is no different than the decision of any number of companies looking to both increase their market penetration in Asia and shifting their base of development there. The former is driven by the understanding that Asia, being the most populous area of the earth, is also likely to become the most gigantic consumer market. The latter is driven by the wage discrepancies, which makes hiring Asian developers alot cheaper than American ones. These two factors are mutually exclusive: once the wages are equalized, the latter advantage fades away, but the former will dominate. Either way, Asian developers provide benefits on both ends.

Next up is the concern of market penetration. I've argued this before, but I stand by the statement that Western penetration of the Asian market in terms of games is PATHETIC compared to the vice versa (the only exception to this seems to be cell phone games/handheld games, ie if you argue that Tetris is played across continents, I won't even try to argue). I know of only a few Western companies that are successful in Asia, the foremost being Blizzard. Every one else pretty much sucks and there's a simple reason for it: Asian gamers play, predominantly, three types of games: strategy games, Asian RPGs (~JRPGs) and MMORPGs. Western gamers tend to focus on action, sports, and shooters.

Stop with your bullshit. This is the second time I've seen you in a thread where you've been posting and you attempted to mutate the actual discussion into something unrecognizable to better serve your naive, dumbass agenda...or perhaps you just like arguing things you really shouldn't be trying to.

EA did not outsource those development jobs to make their game appeal to Asian audiences. That has nothing to do with it. As I pointed out earlier and you convenitently skipped, they did it simply to take advantage of the poor economic circumstances in China, and because they took heat last year from developers that they were pushing to work 60-70 hours with no overtime.

In the case of the Asian market, since you skipped what I pointed out about that as well: stop lumping countries in the same region together, as it does not apply in this case. You're shoving them all into what Japanese gamers prefer, when they aren't the same. Koreans and Chinese gamers are big on first person shooters and action games, and purchase just as many western games as they do Japanese games. What you're referring to as far as market penetration goes, applies only to one country in that region: Japan. Much of that is due to their cultural beliefs of buying Japanese first. As an example, in Japan, western games are labeled imports and given their own dirty little shelf-space in game stores away from the Japanese games, rather than having them all together like most places do.

What kind of idiotic insinuation is that? When did I say that *only* Chinese developers should make games? The whole premises of this thread was that EA hiring Asian developers = GHEY, which is completely assinine. Asian developers are cheaper, they make better art (at least for MMORPGs), game development doesn't require transfer of huge technology bases, and Asian developers apparently have the know-how to attract both Western and Eastern audiences. Guess what's the rational course of action in a global economy in terms of who to hire?

You implied that it is a reasonable trend for development jobs from around the world to be outsourced to China. Once again...stop lumping all the countries there under one convenient category. Japanese labor is not fucking cheap. Those countries have quite different cultures and artistic styles for Christs sake. Even different forms of government! How the fuck can you make a claim that "Asian developers make better art" anyway? That's completely subjective.

By the way, Japanese software sales in the Western world have been on a steady decline for quite some time, so your assertion that they "know how to attract Western and Eastern audiences" is also another sketchy claim. Korea is definitely starting to pick up a little steam in the West with their games though, and China may very well follow suit, but then again, Western games are popular in those countries.

Take a good look at yourself and ask whether you're objecting to the hiring of Asian developers on the basis of xenophobia rather than rational decision making.

Take a good look at yourself and you may just realize you're a short-sighted idiot who's incapable of seeing the big picture.

I am being completely rational in realizing that having all or even a large number of game development jobs shipped to China and other countries with a large economic disparity would be a very bad thing. Especially when I plan to enter the computer science field. I'm not just applying that to the U.S. either, but all countries that have a big hand in the development of video games. If US developmet studios start doing this frequently, it sets a bad trend for the rest of nations where the industry has a large presence, even if they don't conform to the same unethical practices, it makes the competition for them unfair.

It's become a completely acceptable practice with common household goods and the like to rely on cheap, foreign labor, but games are in many ways an art form, not an assembly line product and I don't look forward to them being developed as such. I don't want to go buy a game that's disguised as a game made by a company from a particular country and see "Made in Taiwan, Made in Zimbabwe, or Made in Afghanistan" on the bottom of the box. Not wanting to end up with a bunch of generic, mass-produced trash for entertainment has nothing to do with Xenophobia. At least I'm capable of acknowledging that different cultures exist amongst people of the same racial category, unlike yourself.

As I said, fuck EA and their outsourcing bullshit. If you don't like it - too bad.

 

[RK47]

*looks under keyboard* M. I . China.

*looks on top of keyboard* Logitech.

Ahhh.

HW production outsourcing is OK, but if they're doing it to Softwares it'll just end up ill-fitting.

I respect Japan consoles for their fighting games, but wouldn't consider buying the platform. It's just too limited IMO BTW i live in Singapore.

 

[Azarkon]

I don't have the time or inclination to respond to every one of your points, so here's a bullet point list:

1. When I say that Western games have limited penetration into the Asian market. I mean it. I don't mean Japan. I don't mean South Korea. I mean the entire goddamn East Asian bloc. I cited the Japanese top 50 as concrete data, but the idea applies across the board. I've been keeping up with the gaming scene in all of these countries and by far and large they play Asian games. For instance: ever hear of a series called Legend of Mir? No? It's one of the most popular games in China, where indigenous wuxia games alongside Japanese/Korean games outnumber Western games by something like 50:1 (what's the largest MMO in China? Here's a hint: you've never heard of it). I don't even want to argue this point as you'd have to go to China and see it in the cyber cafes, which I have.

2. Your claim of me twisting the argument into a straw man is completely baseless. If anything, *you're* the one doing the twisting. See above and the case earlier.

3. If I say that the art is better, of course it's a personal opinion. What the fuck isn't? However, if you hang around artistic circles, you'll know that there's a very real respect for Asian CG artists. They're among the best out there.

4. Since I am ALREADY in the computer science industry, you don't need to lecture me on outsourcing, since where I'm standing is ground fucking zero. That said, I fully support what EA is doing because it'd be assinine not to do so in today's cutthroat economy. Protecting American jobs is not the responsibility of the businesses but the government, and if the government refuses to do it you might want to look into getting a new government.

5. Finally, as far as what this discussion was before I came in, you need only read the first three posts. ZOMG TEH ASIANS ARE GHEYZ SUCK!!1!! Not exactly quality discussion material.

Edit: Aside from Blizzard, name me some Western companies that you *believe* has a large following in East Asia.

 

[Llyranor]

(what's the largest MMO in China? Here's a hint: you've never heard of it).

For the record, is it Jin Yong Online or something?

 

[Azarkon]

(what's the largest MMO in China? Here's a hint: you've never heard of it).

For the record, is it Jin Yong Online or something?

My impressions are a bit outdated as I haven't been to China in a year or two, but last I checked, it was Legend of Mir 3 / Journey to the West MMO. WoW has a sizable following in China (and Blizzard is the only Western company I know of that seems to have the magic touch of global appeal), but I do not believe it's as competitive as those two games.

 

[bryce777]

"1. When I say that Western games have limited penetration into the Asian market. I mean it. I don't mean Japan. I don't mean South Korea. I mean the entire goddamn East Asian bloc." Wow, you are a fucking genius! You don't say!

How this will help prove your point that they will supposedly make some great game, I don't know, because they don't even know what a good western game is like.

 

[MisterStone]

Where the fuck did all of you stupid ass race-baters come from?

Hasn't anyone noticed that 90% of the games you waste your precious waking hours dissing on this forum come from American or European developers? So then you see a handful of asians in a random photo and take the opportunity to bitch about how ASIANS make shitty games, and ASIANS are uncreative, and ASIANS are stealing precious game industry jobs.

Japan may not have produced a lot of good RPGS, but they have definitely innovated in other fields, and whose to say that they might not produce a gem of a RPG one of these days? Even the fucking West hasn't been able to produce a decent RPG for at least five or six years!! Sure, a lot of crap comes out of Japan, but as the astute codexer is quick to note, 99% of EVERYTHING is shit anyway, and that is regardless of where it comes from.

The fact that you want to pick on a few Asian faces in a random photograph shows that all of you Asian haters have the emotional maturity of Prince Harry, and are so desparate to be edgy that you are stooping to racist comments for their shock value.

I thought things had reached their low when dumbasses started trading shock porn links in a previous thread, but I guess the dumbasses on this thread have outdone that. Hats off!

And to you pathetic anti-globalization fucks: WAH WAH WAH! You're worried about outsourcing? Fucking get used to it. You dumbfucks can whine about this until your face turns blue, but I have yet to see anyone come up with a reasonable solution to this "problem" that doesn't involve some kind of worthless psuedo-socialist bullshit that would do nothing but make developed Western countries even less competitive than we already are. You fucks are one of the many groups that continues to maintain the status quo in the third world. If EA's making sucky video games is a result of outsourcing, that's the fault of bad (or maybe just ruthlessly market-oriented) decisions on the part of EA, not on the "low quality" of foreign labor.

(P.S. - I am willing to bet my left testicle that a Chinese person working with EA in China gets paid a salary many times higher than what he would get from a Chinese firm, and is treated better to boot. If their working conditions aren't as good as American workers, that's because China is a huge chaotic mess right now, and things are bad for everyone, not because some guy from EA is standing behind them with a barbed wire whip!!)