Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup .018 Release

[Mordru]

Heads up, but the best rogue-like on the planet just released .018. I'm amazed at how much work the dev's constantly put into this game.

If you're interested in getting a rock hard boner, check out the design philosophy.
http://crawl.develz.org/other/manual.html#n-philosophy-pas-de-faq

With every new release version they hold a Tourney. Codex clan represent!!!
http://dobrazupa.org/tournament/0.18/

If you've never played, hit up the wiki, it has the listing of all online servers.
http://crawl.chaosforge.org/Crawl_Wiki

I've given up on any hope of decent rpg dungeon crawling being released by the studios, this fills that niche perfectly. It's the definition of replayability.

 

[Courtier]

''How's the update getting on?'' said the crawl player, raising his voice to overcome the noise.

''Slowly,'' said Campbell. ''I'm on the spells. It's fascinating.''

He had brightened up immediately at the mention of Stone Soup. He pushed his pannikin aside, took up his hunk of bread in one delicate hand and his cheese in the other, and leaned across the table so as to be able to speak without shouting.

''The eighteenth version is the definitive version,'' he said. ''We're putting the game into its final shape -- the shape it's going to have when nobody plays anything else. When we're finished with it, people like you will have to learn it all over again. You think, I dare say, that our chief job is creating new content. But not a bit of it! We're removing features -- scores of them, hundreds of them, every day. We're cutting the game down to the bone. The eighteenth version won't have a single feature that will become unbalanced before the year 2017.''

He bit hungrily into his bread and swallowed a couple of mouthfuls, then continued speaking, with a sort of pedant's passion. His thin dark face had become animated, his eyes had lost their mocking expression and grown almost dreamy.

''It's a beautiful thing, the removing of content. Of course the great wastage is in the monsters and the spells, but there are hundreds of characters that can be got rid of as well. It isn't only the races, there are also the backgrounds. After all, what justification is there for a background which is simply the combination of some others? A background contains its combinations in itself.''

''Take Assassin, for instance. If you have a background like Assassin, what need is there for a background like Stalker? Transmuter will do just as well -- better, because it's exactly different, while the other is not. Or again, if you want a stronger version of Assassin, what sense is there in having a whole string of vague useless backgrounds like Fighter and Gladiator and all the rest of them? An Ogre covers the lack of strength, or a Troll if you want something stronger still. Of course we use these features already. But in the final version of Crawl there'll be nothing else. In the end the whole notion of melee and magic will be covered by only six backgrounds -- in reality only one. Don't you see the beauty of that, player? It was Linley's idea originally, of course.'' he added as an afterthought.

''Don't you see that the whole aim of Stone Soup is to narrow the range of strategies? In the end we shall make exploits literally impossible, because there will be no features in which to create them. Every concept that can ever be needed, will be expressed by exactly one feature, with its power rigidly nerfed and all its subsidiary uses rubbed out and forgotten.''

''Already, in the Eighteenth Version, we're not far from that point. But the process will continue long after you and I are dead. Every year fewer and fewer features, and the range of winnable strategies always a little smaller. Even now, of course, there's no reason or excuse for committing balancecrime. It's merely a question of self-discipline, reality-control. But in the end there won't be any need even for that. The Nerfing Machine will be complete when the game is perfect. Stone Soup is Balance and Balance is Stone Soup.'' he added with a sort of mystical satisfaction.

 

[Mozg]

I should find the version of DC:SS from like six months after the last time I played it so I can actually recognize it and some of my old knowledge and muscle memory will be applicable.

 

[Leechmonger]

So is this game any good? The only roguelike I've ever played is Angband.

Stone Soup is Balance and Balance is Stone Soup.

Is this assessment correct? Two of the three examples presented in this post are about removing supposed redundancies, which I view as a good thing. Having items be distinctly different is far more fun than wading through a sea of samey shit.

 

[Mozg]

Stabwound (one of the first dudes to be a big dick DCSS streaker on akraisic) is/was a Codexer and he was of the opinion that it went to hell around 0.5 I think? I played it a ton around 0.7 and I just burned out after getting OK at it. I vouch for that era and the stuff they took out while I was into it (e.g. The Hive mini-branch) sucked and the game was better off without it. I can see how constant changes in a game about knowledge like a hard ass roguelike would get old fast.

 

[AMG]

Stone Soup is alright, but nothing special imo. It's kinda fun in the diablo way, as in smash mobs, get loot, but not really in the dungeon crawling way. Levels are really large, open and mostly featureless so majority of the time you autoexplore, hold tab when you see monsters, pop teleport scroll on the first sign of trouble. In fact, you can probably get the 3 rune win doing just that.
There is also some plain tedious stuff like getting for resistances for certain branches, and plain retarded things like that spell which halves your HP.
I have no opinion on the whole removing stuff controversy, since I have no emotional attachment to the game. Some of it is good, some bad I guess.
Basically a turn based Diablo, but more brains, less clicks. Although the god system is great.
Play Brogue or Infra Arcana for dungeon crawling done right (which is what this genre should be about).

 

[Snorkack]

I'm by no means an expert, but in my perception the game keeps getting better. I started at about when they completely overhauled the skill system ~2 years ago and it feels like they added way more content than they removed since that time.
My biggest issue has always been the erratic nature of the abyss, where you a) often find yourself thanks to a situation you couldn't possibly have forseen and b) you often starve there because the rng doesn't feel like spawning stairs. They finally fixed that:
Now stairs will appear after you fight a certain amount of enemies. Abyss is still no breeze by any means, just less unfair now.

 

[Helly]

I'm by no means an expert, but in my perception the game keeps getting better. I started at about when they completely overhauled the skill system ~2 years ago and it feels like they added way more content than they removed since that time.
My biggest issue has always been the erratic nature of the abyss, where you a) often find yourself thanks to a situation you couldn't possibly have forseen and b) you often starve there because the rng doesn't feel like spawning stairs. They finally fixed that:
Now stairs will appear after you fight a certain amount of enemies. Abyss is still no breeze by any means, just less unfair now.

And that is exactly why this change sucks. The unique randomness of the abyss always felt great and added a lot of pressure ; finding that exit portal always was exhilarating. Now it'll just be a matter of murdering everything 'till you get out. How generic is that...

 

[Snufkin]

So whats best race/class combo in this game?

 

[Mozg]

Kobold berserker

 

[Snufkin]

What about lvl ups? Where put points in skills/stats/weapon?

 

[Zdzisiu]

What about lvl ups? Where put points in skills/stats/weapon?

Level ups: Mostly dexterity for more evasion. You will get some strenght on level ups anyway. And as berserker you wont use any magic so no need for int.

Skills: Short blades, fighting, dodging, stealth, and maybe later on some points into shields since you wont be using 2h weapons and there is no dual wielding so you may as well get a small buckler for some more defences and resistances. Then also invocations might be usefull since Trog, the God of berserkers have some usefull abilities at higher levels of piety.

Weapon: Short blades, a nice shortsword will serve you well, and later on you might find some nice quickblade. Short blades wont chop hydras heads, which is good too.

Armour: Anything light that wont affect your evasion too much. Mostly robes and various leather armours.

Tip: Always eat chunks untill you are engorged. There is no penalty for being engorged, and its a vital strategy to allow you to berserk at any time. Its the reason why you play Kobolds as berserkers.

God: Trog, no other way to be a berserker, but he gives decent abilities, and even some summoned help later on. Also, gives weapon gifts and he will probably be your source of quickblade and other usefull weapons.

Thats for Kobold Berserker. For other easy combos you could try the usuall Minotaur Fighter with 2h axes. Or Gargoyle Fighter with 1h mace and shield (shitload of usefull intrinsics for free on this guy, the only problem is a lower than usuall hp).

 

[Endlösung]

Did something change or why are people recommending melee chars? Werent casters always significantly easier towards the end?

 

[Monstrous Bat]

So is this game any good? The only roguelike I've ever played is Angband.

Stone Soup is Balance and Balance is Stone Soup.

Is this assessment correct? Two of the three examples presented in this post are about removing supposed redundancies, which I view as a good thing. Having items be distinctly different is far more fun than wading through a sea of samey shit.

In short, Crawl is more "streamlined" than most other classic roguelikes, such as Nethack and ADOM. This is generally a good thing because you don't have to memorize the effect of all 300 monster corpses or spend 50 minute sacrificing critters to get crowned, but it also means there's less crazy and fun stuff you can do. Even as someone who mostly agrees with Crawl's design philosophy I have sometimes found the devs a bit obessed with removing what they consider "exploits" and "no-brainers".

Still, I like the game. The devs implement stupid changes from time to time (felid, gozag, new corro) but in the long term they have made more good decisions than retarded ones. Definitely give it a shot; you will at least enjoy it until you have got you first win.

 

[Zdzisiu]

Did something change or why are people recommending melee chars? Werent casters always significantly easier towards the end?

If you can get to the end they may be easier but I would not recommend a squishy caster to a new player, they can die very easily and a new player will not have a good enough understanding of what mob does how much damage etc.

 

[Mordru]

Are any codexers interested in starting a clan for the tourney?

 

[TigerKnee]

So is this game any good? The only roguelike I've ever played is Angband.

Is this assessment correct? Two of the three examples presented in this post are about removing supposed redundancies, which I view as a good thing. Having items be distinctly different is far more fun than wading through a sea of samey shit.

For many many versions the devs generally made good changes and got rid of tedious and dumb things (training to skill up Armour was a complete bitch in the early versions because you had to find a bat to hit you repeatedly for one damage and shit so it would slowly use up EXP from your pool)

But then it kind of peaked at some point and now they tend to remove things for being "overpowered" or "redundant" but their definition of those concepts is EXTREMELY loose and they make it up with new shit to play with less often.

It's still playable for the adherence to making a Roguelike that doesn't require reading a wiki for every tiny interaction or encouraging repetitive autistic behaviour like Pudding farming in Nethack but it's very hack-and-slashy so make sure you are in a mood for that.

Did something change or why are people recommending melee chars? Werent casters always significantly easier towards the end?

Melee are very strong right until post-game content anyway, especially Berserkers.

 

[Mozg]

My Crawl experience is really too out of date to recommend for real but I said kobold berserker because it's kind of funny plus I'm reasonably sure they're still at least pretty good and easy to learn for a beginner because of engorgezerking.

 

[Zdzisiu]

My Crawl experience is really too out of date to recommend for real but I said kobold berserker because it's kind of funny plus I'm reasonably sure they're still at least pretty good and easy to learn for a beginner because of engorgezerking.

Which is still true and a decent class/species combo. You can have the added benefit of playing a slightly oversized rabid dog with a knife murdering everybody.

Let me say a few choice words about other decent combos:

1. Minotaur Fighter of Okawaru, later of the Shining One. The archetypical melee combo. You just grab the heaviest armour, the most badass two handed axe and kill fools left and right. Its the only character I managed to get a 15 runes win (But thats more due to me being a mediocre player at best).
How to play: In early game Okawaru isnt that useful, his abilities arent bad but I found myself often forgeting I have them. He starts to be more helpfull when you gather enough piety to get gifts as he may give you any piece of armour and weapons that your character can use (Good for species with a lot of equipement restrictions!). Most of the gifts will be mediocre, some will be good, and a few will make you go either "Holy shit, thats exactly what I needed!" or "Really? A fucking lajatang?".

All in all, you just hit dudes in the head and they die. Axes have the added feat of being able to cleave, which is an aoe attack all around you when there are enemies around you. Usefull stuff to quickly kill a host of weaker mobs but one must be carefull not to be overconfident because of it, as you still should prefer to fight monsters 1v1 in tight corridors as it is the safer way. Leave cleaving for the situations when you are surrounded and cannot get to a choke point.

Things that may be slightly annoying include powerfull ranged monsters since you are not using a shield nor any magic so ranged attacks are going to hit you more often.

If you are going for the simplest win, 3 runes and the orb, there is no need to switch gods. Okawaru will be ok for the whole journey and it should be relatively smooth sailing from mid game onwards.

If you are going for the max win of 15 runes, then switching to The Shining One is highly advisable around the time you either want to clear crypt or feel that you got all of the items you need from Okawaru. You can also switch to TSO later on and just far Abyss for piety. At level 27 Abyss is quite easy, and you might even get the rune doing this. The switch to TSO should also be coupled with training invocations as his abilities are pretty great, especially the cleansing flames. At high invocation levels it will murder demons and undeads like there is no tomorrow and will refund its cost in mana and heal you.

Weapon of choice: !!!GRAB SOME CLUB FOR HYDRAS!!! Two handed axe, Executioner axe if you can find one. Ideally you would have one with speed brand, but any damage brand will do (Please no Pain brand, TSO will not let you use it). You use this beast until you switch to TSO and gain max piety, at which point you can bless your weapon at an TSO altar to give it Holy Brand and +2 to enchancement level. This way you get an Executioner Axe of Holy Wrath +9 which is a true meatgrinder for the late game where most if not all of the enemies are either demons or undeads.

2. Gargoyle of Okawaru (Probably later on of TSO too). With this combo I won a couple of 3 rune wins. The strenght of this guy comes from his built in features:

• Natural AC: Gargoyles receive a large innate boost to AC relative to your XL. Gargoyles get +2 AC at XL 1, and this rises every few levels (see chart below).
• Increased GDR: A Gargoyle's GDR is calculated as though the base AC of the body armour they are wearing is 5 greater (see chart below).
• Petrification resistance: Gargoyles cannot be petrified.
• Rot resistance: Gargoyles are composed of stone rather than flesh, and thus cannot rot.
• Gargoyles are immune to poison.
  • Gargoyles cannot memorize Cure Poison.
• Electricity resistance: Gargoyles are well insulated and take little damage from electricity attacks. This innate protection is identical to that provided by rElec, but do note that rElec from multiple sources do not stack.
• Partial torment resistance: Gargoyles take 1/2 normal damage when affected by torment. This resistance does stack with other effects that reduce damage of torment.
• Unbreathing: Gargoyles can survive without breathing.
• Life Protection 1: Gargoyles have one innate level of resistance against negative energy (rN+).
• Gargoyles cannot memorize Statue Form, as they are already made of stone.
• Vulnerability to Shatter and LRD.

As you can see, a load of nice resistances or straight up immunities, boosts to AC and GDR. The only drawback is the lower than average health but with the high AC and GDR its a very tough guy.

Weapon of choice: I prefer to go 1h mace and shield for even more defences. You have the choice of either a demon whip which is a faster weapon but works worse against armoured mobs, or an eveningstar that is better against armoured dudes but is not as fast as a demon whip. If you go TSO you will probably want to bless your Demon whip and turn it into a Sacred Scourge.

This combo allows you to not give much of a fuck about the things that would be scary to other characters such as Torment, Poison, Electric attacks, Petrification, Suffocation.

 

[Damned Registrations]

I would argue mages are probably easier for a newer player actually; when you look at a monster in game, it outright tells you which elements it is weak or immune to. Likewise, you get detailed information about how much your spells cost to cast, how difficult they are to learn, how powerful they are, etc. For weapons you get much much less info (I think it gives some vague description about their relative speeds, but certainly nothing that would let you know when to switch from one weapon to another to optimize attack speed), and there's basically no clue at all which monsters are dangerous or not in melee. There's no sticker on an orc knight that says "Btw, these hit like 4 times as hard as the next weakest orcs so they might one-shot you" but everything with a ranged attack that might be a threat to a caster is plainly visible so you can blink away, or put on your ring of fire resist, or whatever. Berserk really only saves you if you use it beforehand. I suppose with something like a kobold you can at least afford to berserk every single time you see a new monster though.

 

[Zdzisiu]

I would argue mages are probably easier for a newer player actually; when you look at a monster in game, it outright tells you which elements it is weak or immune to. Likewise, you get detailed information about how much your spells cost to cast, how difficult they are to learn, how powerful they are, etc. For weapons you get much much less info (I think it gives some vague description about their relative speeds, but certainly nothing that would let you know when to switch from one weapon to another to optimize attack speed), and there's basically no clue at all which monsters are dangerous or not in melee. There's no sticker on an orc knight that says "Btw, these hit like 4 times as hard as the next weakest orcs so they might one-shot you" but everything with a ranged attack that might be a threat to a caster is plainly visible so you can blink away, or put on your ring of fire resist, or whatever. Berserk really only saves you if you use it beforehand. I suppose with something like a kobold you can at least afford to berserk every single time you see a new monster though.

Fair points, I have never managed to get a caster past midgame so I dont really know how they fare beyond the rather squishy early game where its not easy to kill mobs fast enough and when you are faced with 3-4 of them, some will close to melee range before you manage to kill them. My main problem with early casters is that I either run out of mana in prolonged fights with groups of mobs, or get smithed by a priest, or shot by ranged monster such as centaur, or turn a corner and face an ogre that you can't outrun unless you are a spriggan or something.

As for the info on weapons, its now a bit more clear because it tells you what the minimum attack delay is and at what skill level you will achieve it in the description of every weapon.

 

[Damned Registrations]

Good to see they finally added that info for weapons. I suggested that years ago and pretty much everyone on the forums (including at least one dev) waved the suggestion away as being too revealing of the mechanics or some crap like that.

As for casters in the early game, Conjure Flame beats the shit out of just about everything in a corridor that would try to melee you. Running out of mana is certainly an issue, but that's what gods are for. And staircases. Damned staircases in Crawl are OP as fuck.

 

[Endlösung]

I have never managed to get a caster past midgame

Really? Whats midgame? Before 3 runes? Cause something simple like Vehumet Geomancer is unstoppable (and funny) for the first 3 runes, aside from maybe the first 7 levels. While melee zerking is dangerous too far from the stairs... In fact, my minotaur with a two handed axe died just like you described, cleaving several monsters and losing... Casters feel like you are under control, while melee forces you to get intimate...

 

[profreshinal]

Are any codexers interested in starting a clan for the tourney?

I'll play some tourney games even if it's ages ago since I last played to win a game. I'll be using the same name as the one I'm using now.

 

[Zdzisiu]

I have never managed to get a caster past midgame

Really? Whats midgame? Before 3 runes? Cause something simple like Vehumet Geomancer is unstoppable (and funny) for the first 3 runes, aside from maybe the first 7 levels. While melee zerking is dangerous too far from the stairs... In fact, my minotaur with a two handed axe died just like you described, cleaving several monsters and losing... Casters feel like you are under control, while melee forces you to get intimate...

It might be due to me not really playing many casters. The ratio of casters to melee I play is probably somewhere around 1:50. So I probably just suck at playing casters. And as you have said, the first 7 levels is what kills me the most often on casters.

But a Geomancer is something I did not try yet, and it sounds interesting.