Dota 2 Discussion (~Boston Majors & Road to TI7~)

[Dr.Faust]

I have it and I love it. It has problems and bugs, but that's something you can expect from a beta. Most players seem to be pretty bad, though. Picking a carry and farming seems to result in a certain victory since enemies don't know how to gank or ward.

I'm just glad I don't have to deal with S2 shenanigans anymore. I hear even reporting costs coins in their shitty game nowadays.

 

[Padre]

I'm just glad I don't have to deal with S2 shenanigans anymore. I hear even reporting costs coins in their shitty game nowadays.

Another braindead moron. We have enough of those on hon forums nowadays, really. They take a deposit of 25 silver coins to ensure your report is actually meaningful and not just a 'he a fucking cheat, he bd our bases, ban this moderfucker'. Element Used made a topic about that, around 15-20% of reports were actually valid, rest was just sent because people were mad, stupid or didn't know rules. When they lose the deposit maybe they will take the time to actually read the rules concerning the game.

@Ulminati

No hard feelings bro, I just remember you from our discussion about Hon and Lol community where you stated that ours was significantly worse because of all the hate, rage and name calling. That struck me as funny because it's the same behaviour I see when my friend plays lol.

Add me on steam so we can bro it up a little in D2 though.

 

[Ulminati]

Another braindead moron. We have enough of those on hon forums nowadays

No hard feelings bro, I just remember you from our discussion about Hon and Lol community where you stated that ours was significantly worse because of all the hate, rage and name calling.

Add me on steam so we can bro it up a little in D2 though.

Sry mang. I don't think I have the right kind of aspergers syndrome to be your bro.

Besides, my reaction after 7 hours of dota2 can be summed up thusly:

Valve, what the fuck is wrong with you!? You build a company on the reputation of making polished, fun and responsive games. Pick up an IP then completely disregard EVERYTHING we've learned about user interface design and gameplay mechanics in the last 12 years. What the fuck is the purpose of making a new engine for a game if you're not going to fix all the retarded gameplay and UI quirks that arose as a result of the original being a custom map in another game.

Apparently the bar of entry for DotA 2 requires an almost religious beleif that perfection has already been acheived, and any attempts to make the game playable by someone who hasn't played DotA 1 for at least 2 years is heresy. I'd rather play a game where I'm fighting the opponents instead of the UI and the horrible, floaty animations. And the obtuse particle effects. And the fact that everything pretty much looks the same.

I'm sure it's heavan to the honfags who declare LoL a retarded game because it dared to mess with their holy formula though.

 

[Excidium]

I played HoN and LOL and both games have horribly shitty and unfriendly communities, inherited from dota.

 

[garren]

What's wrong with the dota2 UI ulminati? I've played HoN and Dota and I think dota2 UI is the best so far.

 

[Castanova]

If anyone has extra keys lying around and you don't know what to do with them, I'd be happy to give the game a whirl. It's unlikely I'll get into it super hardcore though so think of me as your last resort for disposing of a key.

 

[Ulminati]

What's wrong with the dota2 UI ulminati? I've played HoN and Dota and I think dota2 UI is the best so far.

I guess I just got spoiled by LoL.

My main complaints with the DotA2 UI so far:

- The store is a horrid, bloated mess. It's not alway simmediately clear if the item you're about to buy is actually available in the store you're at. Item combining doesn't always work (meaning you have to empty your inventory to finish some items). You can't click the items you've already bought to see what they build into (you have to find the relevant item in the store iteself to see the build tree). The items are sorted by price instead of what they actually do, etc.
- The minimap - for some reason - won't let me reposition the camera. Right-click moves my dude. Left-click pings. I've tried alt-clicing, ctrl-clicking and shift-clicking, but the camera refuses to budge. This has gotten me killed more than once if I've been interacting with the courier at the base and ende dup gettign attacked.
- Self-use of potions seems to be b0rked. the only way I can drink mana/health potions is by double-clicking the icon despite a hotkey being set.
- the items in general being confusing to navigate (though this is more due to the fact that most DotA items appear to be bought for their active ability rather than stats). Compare it to LoL where I usually know I need health/armor/magic resist/ap/attack damage/asstack speed etc. I can click a button and see all items that contain the relevant stat I'm after.
- Graphics blending too much into each other. Hit point bars aren't clearly enough segmented to show people at a glance how many hit points someone has. If 2 heroes are both at 90% hp, but one has 1000 max hp and the other has 3000, I should be able to tell so without clicking their heroes first. The information is available to all players, just hidden behind bad graphic design. Same thing with character level (it's kinda important to know if the guy you're about to gank is level 5 or 6). Again, I'd point at LoL as a brillant example that shows you the status of friends and enemies at a glance withotu having to click everyone in turn.
- Speaking of graphics, the spell effects are still too flashy (althoguh not nearly as bad as in hon). Teamfights turn into rainbow bloom clusterfucks. Again, compare this to LoL where the "ugly, simple graphics" some people complain about mean that even in a 5v5 teamfight, the layman can follow what's happening.

I have a number of signifigant gripes with the core gameplay elements as well. I think it's a crying shame that Valve didn't take the oppertunity to rework some of the obfuscation and unintuitive mechanics that were originally introduced as a necessary workaround of the WC3 engines limitations. They could have done so much with the IP and delivered everyone an awesome MOBA. Instead they deliver a reskinned carbon copy of a game that's 12 years old. I'm sure there's a hardcore aspie group that's been waiting for this. But I'm not in that group.

 

[Wulfstand]

Well I, for one, am enjoying this piece of software quite a lot, and am happy to be a part of the beta. It feels very much like the first dota, and I haven't had any interface errors so far, and I also got used to the item shop after 3-4 matches.
'Tis great fun, lads, great fun, that is to say, if you were a fan of the first dota and/or hon.

 

[Archibald]

I'm sure it's heavan to the honfags who declare LoL a retarded game because it dared to mess with their holy formula though.

From what i see majority of sensible honfags are viewing it as a step backwards because lots of improvements made in HoN are being ignored because S2 is evil and HoN is shit. Sure there are retards like Dr. Faust but every community has its share of retards, HoN just happens to have slightly higher percentage.

 

[Rpgsaurus]

If someone wants to party up add me on
http://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561198047009914 (I play on EU)

 

[Excidium]

Can you play on NA and EU with the same account?

 

[Padre]

Of course. I mean, which developer would be stupid enough to make 2 separate clients to play in those two different regions?

 

[Rpgsaurus]

I have it and I love it. It has problems and bugs, but that's something you can expect from a beta. Most players seem to be pretty bad, though. Picking a carry and farming seems to result in a certain victory since enemies don't know how to gank or ward.

MM is rating-based. When I play with my noob friends I never lose, since I get matched against opponents who are far worse than me. When I solo q I get relatively balanced games (and ppl buy/upgrade courier, ward, counterward, push, gank, etc etc).

Your initial rating is based on what you chose when you started it up (beginner/average/veteran).

 

[Rpgsaurus]

I think it's a crying shame that Valve didn't take the oppertunity to rework some of the obfuscation and unintuitive mechanics that were originally introduced as a necessary workaround of the WC3 engines limitations.

Could you, like, give an example? Because I can't think of any, except getting stuck in terrain. Most of the stuff people assume to be "limitations" (like no mana bars) are there for balance reasons.

 

[Berekän]

Of course. I mean, which developer would be stupid enough to make 2 separate clients to play in those two different regions?

You should check your facts before trying to be because you're just making a fool of yourself.

 

[Padre]

You should probably go and repair that sarcasm detector because you are just making a fool of yourself.

 

[Berekän]

Wow, are you kidding me?

 

[Dr.Faust]

I think it's a crying shame that Valve didn't take the oppertunity to rework some of the obfuscation and unintuitive mechanics that were originally introduced as a necessary workaround of the WC3 engines limitations.

Could you, like, give an example? Because I can't think of any, except getting stuck in terrain. Most of the stuff people assume to be "limitations" (like no mana bars) are there for balance reasons.

When people talk about "WC3 engine limitations" they mean things that are in for real reasons but weren't in their AoS game of choice. Stuff like denying, not being able to port to unexplored terrain, stacking, etc. Instead of understanding why these things are in and what actual tactical value they add to the game people bitch and cry.

Now I'm not saying everything doter 2 does is pure gold, the UI is shit, tooltips suck, the shop is way too big, but keeping in mind that it's still in beta it seems a lot better than the alternatives.

 

[Ulminati]

When people talk about "WC3 engine limitations" they mean things that are in for real reasons but weren't in their AoS game of choice.

I'm talking about simple things like showing level and making it easier to tell how many hitpoints someone has at a glance. This is information available to players if they click on a visible friend or enemy. There is no reason not to make this information easily readable.

I'm talking about basic champion design. The whole strength/intelligence/agility schtick is an unintuitive mess that is mainly tolerated because the people who defend DotA2 are the people who played HoN/DotA for ages and are used to the obfuscation. Incidentially, mixing what the various stats do for different heroes and having items grant sub-stats of the main stats is one of the two major reasons the store is and likely always will be a mess to sort through.

Stuff like denying, not being able to port to unexplored terrain, stacking, etc. Instead of understanding why these things are in and what actual tactical value they add to the game people bitch and cry.

The litmus test of whether or not I consider someones opinions coloured by nostalgia or not is if they try to defend denying. Getting rid of that was the smartest thing RIOT ever did. What players lost in obsessively clicking minions they gained in being able to harrass other players and making laning less of a ricefest.

Now I'm not saying everything doter 2 does is pure gold, the UI is shit, tooltips suck, the shop is way too big, but keeping in mind that it's still in beta it seems a lot better than the alternatives.

Funny that. My experience with DotA2 convinced me that the alternatives were actually better. Well LoL and BLC at least. HoN is still DotA except with a bunch of dicks running the company and a community that somehow manages to be slightly fouler than the cesspit most MobA games have for a community.

 

[meh]

I guess I just got spoiled by LoL.

My main complaints with the DotA2 UI so far:

- The store is a horrid, bloated mess. It's not alway simmediately clear if the item you're about to buy is actually available in the store you're at.

If you've played a game for a week for instance you'd know which items are in secret shop and which items are available at side shops. It's doesnt tell you that an item you need for a recipe is in a secret shop, because you know, it's a secret shop.

Disregarding that, is it difficult two browse two tabs of items? I guess it is difficult for a newbie who doesn't know items costs or what can be bought at the secret shop, but this limitation is removed with experience. In addition, there's an item search now, in order to quickly find the item you need (Again, you have to know the name of the item).

Item combining doesn't always work (meaning you have to empty your inventory to finish some items).

Didn't experience this yet, everything's fine on my end. What item didn't combine? You should report that.

You can't click the items you've already bought to see what they build into (you have to find the relevant item in the store iteself to see the build tree).

I'd say - how you should know? It's only written on the recipe... Anyway, I don't remember then was the last time I looked at the item tooltip/description. It might get implemented though. Suggest that.

The items are sorted by price instead of what they actually do, etc.

They are grouped as good as they get. How would you sort items which have different abilities, what would you prioritize? They are sorted by basic/support/tanking/orb/damage etc groups and then by price.

The minimap - for some reason - won't let me reposition the camera. Right-click moves my dude. Left-click pings. I've tried alt-clicing, ctrl-clicking and shift-clicking, but the camera refuses to budge. This has gotten me killed more than once if I've been interacting with the courier at the base and ende dup gettign attacked.

Ugh, maybe you've messed up your key bindings? Usually, the map is pinged when you hold alt and press left click and then you draw on the map when you hold ctrl and left click. Or maybe your keyboards alt is messed up? Why don't you report it?

Self-use of potions seems to be b0rked. the only way I can drink mana/health potions is by double-clicking the icon despite a hotkey being set.

Again, check your key bindings. Double clicking hotkey should also work.

the items in general being confusing to navigate (though this is more due to the fact that most DotA items appear to be bought for their active ability rather than stats). Compare it to LoL where I usually know I need health/armor/magic resist/ap/attack damage/asstack speed etc. I can click a button and see all items that contain the relevant stat I'm after.

Somewhat true? There are one dimensional items, but they usually contain a bonus. The judgement what item to buy in certain situations grows with experience. Need hp on a hero? Get vanguard in an early game, get heart in the late game etc.

Graphics blending too much into each other. Hit point bars aren't clearly enough segmented to show people at a glance how many hit points someone has. If 2 heroes are both at 90% hp, but one has 1000 max hp and the other has 3000, I should be able to tell so without clicking their heroes first. The information is available to all players, just hidden behind bad graphic design. Same thing with character level (it's kinda important to know if the guy you're about to gank is level 5 or 6). Again, I'd point at LoL as a brillant example that shows you the status of friends and enemies at a glance withotu having to click everyone in turn.

You know there's a scoreboard?

Speaking of graphics, the spell effects are still too flashy (althoguh not nearly as bad as in hon). Teamfights turn into rainbow bloom clusterfucks. Again, compare this to LoL where the "ugly, simple graphics" some people complain about mean that even in a 5v5 teamfight, the layman can follow what's happening.

Sorry, I don't discuss graphics.

I have a number of signifigant gripes with the core gameplay elements as well. I think it's a crying shame that Valve didn't take the oppertunity to rework some of the obfuscation and unintuitive mechanics that were originally introduced as a necessary workaround of the WC3 engines limitations. They could have done so much with the IP and delivered everyone an awesome MOBA. Instead they deliver a reskinned carbon copy of a game that's 12 years old. I'm sure there's a hardcore aspie group that's been waiting for this. But I'm not in that group.

I'm talking about simple things like showing level and making it easier to tell how many hitpoints someone has at a glance. This is information available to players if they click on a visible friend or enemy. There is no reason not to make this information easily readable.

But if you have just completed that heart of tarrasque and don't want anyone to see it, don't want anyone to know that youll have it the next team fight when they are going to focus on you? Using that same logic, why would the enemy items be hidden? Let's display them also for everyone to see in the scoreboard.

I'm talking about basic champion design. The whole strength/intelligence/agility schtick is an unintuitive mess that is mainly tolerated because the people who defend DotA2 are the people who played HoN/DotA for ages and are used to the obfuscation. Incidentially, mixing what the various stats do for different heroes and having items grant sub-stats of the main stats is one of the two major reasons the store is and likely always will be a mess to sort through.

There are strength, intelligence and agility type heroes and they are too complex you to understand? I'm sorry, but you don't like versatility that you can do with various heroes? What's wrong with that if I want my Spectre to be tanky one game and DPS other one? What's wrong with having a lot of mana on Sand King one game and going heart/radi the other one?

The litmus test of whether or not I consider someones opinions coloured by nostalgia or not is if they try to defend denying. Getting rid of that was the smartest thing RIOT ever did. What players lost in obsessively clicking minions they gained in being able to harrass other players and making laning less of a ricefest.

No, YOU don't understand. There's nothing wrong with the denying. I'll share several points with you. First of all, you control your lane, you don't push and neatly farm near your tower, because the enemy hero is that much stronger hero, has longer range etc. But with smart denying or at least hitting several times your creeps you can stay behind the tower and farm. Secondly, there's an aggresive mid lane battle storm spirit vs (lets say just for examples sake) sniper. If the sniper denies several creeps from storm (denying xp) he will hit level 6 first and will finish storm off with his ultimate, but if storm spirit denies more creeps than sniper, he'll hit 6 first and will be albe to rofl (=rolling on floor lightning) to snipers hill take him out. Thirdly, when your carry farm in a protected trilane/dual lane, the support or the same carry denies the creeps that the sacrificial side lane solo of the opponents team wouldn't even outlevel them. This isn't just lol you didn't get 50 gold, my magina will get battlefury first at 30min than your aghanims voids.

 

[meh]

Also, is it badwrong to deny enemy weaver creeps in order to delay his radiance to 23mins to let my team w/ chen and veno push tier 3 tower at 20 mins?

 

[Padre]

Don't bother meh. We had the same discussion during hon vs lol thread. And this guy was so butthurt when I called him rabid lol fanboy.

Lol players usually defend their 'no denies' policy by saying that it encourages what they call 'zoning' and aggressive gameplay. Dunno where they get that and how are those two connected.

Fact is, you can control your lane more with enough skill in Hon/DotA because of the creep AI and aggro range. Yes, it does require high apm but so does every god damn competetive game. You can literally drag those creeps to your tower when you need to be a little safer and bait the opponent to follow you so your mid can come from behind.

Ulminati, most of your complaints really sound like bugs and/or you suck at key binding. My items combine no problem, shop isn't the easiest I agree but with so many different multipurpose items it's difficult to group them up properly.

 

[Ulminati]

My apologies in advance for the nested quote clusterfuck.

Item combining doesn't always work (meaning you have to empty your inventory to finish some items).

Didn't experience this yet, everything's fine on my end. What item didn't combine? You should report that.

Can't remember, it was something for that drow archer skank fairly early in the gamr. The green mask thing I think. Considering how many things I found I disliked about DotA2 I see no reason to report it as I'm unlikely to play the end result anyway.

You can't click the items you've already bought to see what they build into (you have to find the relevant item in the store iteself to see the build tree).

I'd say - how you should know? It's only written on the recipe... Anyway, I don't remember then was the last time I looked at the item tooltip/description. It might get implemented though. Suggest that.

Because it is basic knowledge that should be freely available, easy and intuitive to access. Making your UI less user-friendly doesn't raise the skill-cap. It just annoys new players - the lifeblood of any game that wants to be around 6 months down the road.

The minimap - for some reason - won't let me reposition the camera. Right-click moves my dude. Left-click pings. I've tried alt-clicing, ctrl-clicking and shift-clicking, but the camera refuses to budge. This has gotten me killed more than once if I've been interacting with the courier at the base and ende dup gettign attacked.

Ugh, maybe you've messed up your key bindings? Usually, the map is pinged when you hold alt and press left click and then you draw on the map when you hold ctrl and left click. Or maybe your keyboards alt is messed up? Why don't you report it?

Tried changing the keybinding. Tried clicking in other games where alt-modifiers were used and they worked fine. As to why I don't report it, see my answer to #1.

Self-use of potions seems to be b0rked. the only way I can drink mana/health potions is by double-clicking the icon despite a hotkey being set.

Again, check your key bindings. Double clicking hotkey should also work.

See answer to previous quote.

the items in general being confusing to navigate (though this is more due to the fact that most DotA items appear to be bought for their active ability rather than stats). Compare it to LoL where I usually know I need health/armor/magic resist/ap/attack damage/asstack speed etc. I can click a button and see all items that contain the relevant stat I'm after.

Somewhat true? There are one dimensional items, but they usually contain a bonus. The judgement what item to buy in certain situations grows with experience. Need hp on a hero? Get vanguard in an early game, get heart in the late game etc.

That the nature of items in DotA makes it difficult to create a good sorting for the store does not change the fact that the sorting available is crap.

Graphics blending too much into each other. Hit point bars aren't clearly enough segmented to show people at a glance how many hit points someone has. If 2 heroes are both at 90% hp, but one has 1000 max hp and the other has 3000, I should be able to tell so without clicking their heroes first. The information is available to all players, just hidden behind bad graphic design. Same thing with character level (it's kinda important to know if the guy you're about to gank is level 5 or 6). Again, I'd point at LoL as a brillant example that shows you the status of friends and enemies at a glance withotu having to click everyone in turn.

You know there's a scoreboard?

THAT IS EXACTLY MY POINT! If the information is available, why do I have to bring up a seperate window that obscures the entire screen to view it? Take a page out of LoLs book and add level # and highly visible seperator lines for every 100 hp or so on the hitpoint bars.

Speaking of graphics, the spell effects are still too flashy (althoguh not nearly as bad as in hon). Teamfights turn into rainbow bloom clusterfucks. Again, compare this to LoL where the "ugly, simple graphics" some people complain about mean that even in a 5v5 teamfight, the layman can follow what's happening.

Sorry, I don't discuss graphics.

When particle spam makes it difficult to tell what's going on in any given situation where target priority and timing matters, it becomes an UI issue. Let's call it the "OMG LENS FLARES AND BLOOM!" effect.

I'm talking about basic champion design. The whole strength/intelligence/agility schtick is an unintuitive mess that is mainly tolerated because the people who defend DotA2 are the people who played HoN/DotA for ages and are used to the obfuscation. Incidentially, mixing what the various stats do for different heroes and having items grant sub-stats of the main stats is one of the two major reasons the store is and likely always will be a mess to sort through.

There are strength, intelligence and agility type heroes and they are too complex you to understand? I'm sorry, but you don't like versatility that you can do with various heroes? What's wrong with that if I want my Spectre to be tanky one game and DPS other one? What's wrong with having a lot of mana on Sand King one game and going heart/radi the other one?

For versatility, see: Cho'Gath. You can build him as a hard tank, as an initiator, as a crowd-control machine. You can build him for burst damage (AP), sustained (AS/AD) or wacky extras (AS/On-hit). He can go solo lane, duo lane, jungle, support.

Also, you're missing my point entirely on str/agi/int. I'm saying that since each of the attributes basically increase 3-4 attributes at varying rates, they should just remove them altogether and give items the subattributes. Incidentially, that'd allow them to vary items further and let them create subcategories depending on which stat(s) items boosted, easing sorting in the clusterfuck store.

It'd also make DotA players tremendously butthurt (changing a semicolon in their holy, perfect formula) so it's not likely to happen.

The litmus test of whether or not I consider someones opinions coloured by nostalgia or not is if they try to defend denying. Getting rid of that was the smartest thing RIOT ever did. What players lost in obsessively clicking minions they gained in being able to harrass other players and making laning less of a ricefest.

No, YOU don't understand. There's nothing wrong with the denying. I'll share several points with you. First of all, you control your lane, you don't push and neatly farm near your tower, because the enemy hero is that much stronger hero, has longer range etc. But with smart denying or at least hitting several times your creeps you can stay behind the tower and farm. Secondly, there's an aggresive mid lane battle storm spirit vs (lets say just for examples sake) sniper. If the sniper denies several creeps from storm (denying xp) he will hit level 6 first and will finish storm off with his ultimate, but if storm spirit denies more creeps than sniper, he'll hit 6 first and will be albe to rofl (=rolling on floor lightning) to snipers hill take him out. Thirdly, when your carry farm in a protected trilane/dual lane, the support or the same carry denies the creeps that the sacrificial side lane solo of the opponents team wouldn't even outlevel them. This isn't just lol you didn't get 50 gold, my magina will get battlefury first at 30min than your aghanims voids.

[/quote]

It's called zoning. It's like denying, except it encourages more player conflict, active junglers and effective warding. Considering I frequently end my laning phase with a 50+ advantage in creeps and about 1½ levels over whoever I was up against - even if neither of us has a signifigant kill advantage - should prove zoning and clever harrasment will give you a comparative advantage to denying.

-------------------------------------------------------------

In summary

I tried DotA2. I found I didn't like it. Realizing what I didn't like about DotA2 made me appreciate what Riot and Stunlock did -- took the formula DotA made a decade ago and TRIED TO IMPROVE ON IT instead of making a carbon copy with more lens flare. I already stated several times that DotA2 is probably a wet dream for people who beleive DotA1 acheived perfection and the (subsection of?) HoN players whose mantra for ages has been "HoN is the closest thing there is to DotA). They have a perfect right to exist and are perfectly entitled to their opinions.

Just as I am entitled to have my opinions. Which (almost) every point I've raised so far has been. That hotkeys and map are b0rked on my desktop and laptop PCs are facts, not opinions.

If you think it's ok that teamfights look like lens flare clusterfucks; the UI is annoying at best and deliberately trying to obfuscate available data at worst; and that one of the best-funded developers today aren't even going to TRY improving 10 year old mechanics go ahead, knock yourself out. But it's not going to make me thing DotA2 is worth my time.

It'll be interesting to see how things stand 1 year down the road.

warble warble warble

Like I said a few posts back. I neither have nor desire the kind of aspergers it takes to make it onto your BRO list

 

[meh]

What's your favourite anime?

 

[Ulminati]

The one where people try to change the topic because they think they're terribly clever. I forget what it's called. :D

But yeah. DotA2 -- If you loved DotA1 you'll probably like it. If you didn't like DotA1 or never played it, don't expect Valve to change your mind. This is definately a game built to satisfy an existing niche of players. Not to carve a new one for itself.