Discussing a game which isn't wholly an RPG

[Greenante]

Hey guys, this is my first post here so I thought I would start with something which I've been wondering.
Your opinions here are important to me since this is something I would like to create.

Say for instance a game which plays much like an action game like Assassin's Creed; your character's abilities are pre-determined and you can not customise them.
However the story is driven by a dialogue system obviously ripped from RPGs, branching and changing the story with NPCs reacting to dialogue and actions as well.
I have two questions about how you react when you discover a game which isn't a complete RPG but is clearly inspired by them.

1. Do you bother with the game if it isn't committed to the RPG design fully and what are your reasons? I.E. Lack of customisable character in my example above.

2. Do you ever rate games that aren't fully RPGs among your favourites?

An example I can think of is how Dark Souls has very little choice when it comes to the story but obviously the character creation and leveling systems are absolutely in the spirit of role-playing.
BTW the reason for the lack of a customisable character is because I wish the story to be tailored to a specific character.

 

[Greenante]

Also if you have any comments about improving my future posts and threads, I suppose you can go ahead

 

[Orma]

Say for instance a game which plays much like an action game like Assassin's Creed; your character's abilities are pre-determined and you can not customise them.
However the story is driven by a dialogue system obviously ripped from RPGs, branching and changing the story with NPCs reacting to dialogue and actions as well.

So, witcher 3?

 

[Zer0wing]

Say for instance a game which plays much like an action game like Assassin's Creed; your character's abilities are pre-determined and you can not customise them.
However the story is driven by a dialogue system obviously ripped from RPGs, branching and changing the story with NPCs reacting to dialogue and actions as well.
I have two questions about how you react when you discover a game which isn't a complete RPG but is clearly inspired by them.

Greedfaill is shit, what to discuss?

 

[Greenante]

Say for instance a game which plays much like an action game like Assassin's Creed; your character's abilities are pre-determined and you can not customise them.
However the story is driven by a dialogue system obviously ripped from RPGs, branching and changing the story with NPCs reacting to dialogue and actions as well.

So, witcher 3?

Yeah that's a good example.
Do you think Witcher 3 was aimed at the mainstream and so the dialogue wasn't as cRPG as it could've been? I have plans to replay it over Christmas to evaluate it myself.

 

[Greenante]

Say for instance a game which plays much like an action game like Assassin's Creed; your character's abilities are pre-determined and you can not customise them.
However the story is driven by a dialogue system obviously ripped from RPGs, branching and changing the story with NPCs reacting to dialogue and actions as well.
I have two questions about how you react when you discover a game which isn't a complete RPG but is clearly inspired by them.

Greedfaill is shit, what to discuss?

Haven't played it yet but I always assumed it wasn't aiming for the type of dialogue depth I would want in a game

 

[JDR13]

Also if you have any comments about improving my future posts and threads, I suppose you can go ahead

Maybe not be so generic and full of rhetorical questions?

 

[JDR13]

Say for instance a game which plays much like an action game like Assassin's Creed; your character's abilities are pre-determined and you can not customise them.
However the story is driven by a dialogue system obviously ripped from RPGs, branching and changing the story with NPCs reacting to dialogue and actions as well.

So, witcher 3?

Except your abilites in TW3 are not predetermined, and you can customize them.

 

[Trashos]

Say for instance a game which plays much like an action game like Assassin's Creed; your character's abilities are pre-determined and you can not customise them.
However the story is driven by a dialogue system obviously ripped from RPGs, branching and changing the story with NPCs reacting to dialogue and actions as well.

So, witcher 3?

And Planescape Torment. It is not obvious at all why OP needs a fully predetermined character.

Do you bother with the game if it isn't committed to the RPG design fully and what are your reasons? I.E. Lack of customisable character in my example above.

Maybe, if it is great in the things it actually does.

Do you ever rate games that aren't fully RPGs among your favourites?

Hasn't happened, but in theory it is not impossible. My main point here is: If you disgust me with one of your design choices, you will have to make up for it some way or another.

 

[Greenante]

Also if you have any comments about improving my future posts and threads, I suppose you can go ahead

Maybe not be so generic and full of rhetorical questions?

Yeah hoping it's just the nerves of a first time post

 

[Trashos]

Do not worry. Just because legendary god-tier developers were flamed here when they discussed getting rid of numbers in RPGs, it does not mean that you won't fare better.

 

[laclongquan]

1. Do you bother with the game if it isn't committed to the RPG design fully and what are your reasons? I.E. Lack of customisable character in my example above.

2. Do you ever rate games that aren't fully RPGs among your favourites?

Well fucking duh! We like to play RPGs because they answer some specific needs in our own psyche. But that doesnt mean we dont play the games not label as RPG, or actual non-RPG.

As for predetermined main character, RANCE, you heathens! Rance is predetermined and we have to learn how to use him. WE can not customize him much if at all (games: Sengoku Rance, and other of same series). The main character of Front Mission 3, Kazuki, is also predetermined. There should be others but these 2 is off the top of my head~

And obviously, there are nonRPG among my favourite game. Warzone 2100 for RTS. SMAC (X) for TBS. Just for example.

 

[RNGsus]

I have two questions about how you react when you discover a game which isn't a complete RPG but is clearly inspired by them.

In the case of Thief or Heroes of Might and Magic, I fall in love. That obviously has nothing to do with dialogue systems.

 

[Zer0wing]

Haven't played it yet but I always assumed it wasn't aiming for the type of dialogue depth I would want in a game

Yet there's plenty of written and voiced dialogue with no substance or coherent writing present there.

 

[grimace]

Greenante perhaps these guys will publish your game: https://www.cyoa.com/

 

[JarlFrank]

Hey guys, this is my first post here

Welcome to the Codex you gargantuan faggot. Enjoy your stay. Try not to get raped by the local trannies.

Say for instance a game which plays much like an action game like Assassin's Creed; your character's abilities are pre-determined and you can not customise them.
However the story is driven by a dialogue system obviously ripped from RPGs, branching and changing the story with NPCs reacting to dialogue and actions as well.

First, define dialogue system. There are several fixed character RPGs I enjoyed. Planescape Torment. The recent Disco Elysium. They both use the classic system of giving you dialogue trees where every sentence you can say is spelled out exactly for you, and that's all your character says. Every single word your character says is spelled out in the choices you get. It's the best system there is.

Then there's Deus Ex, Gothic, Elex. These games spell out entire sentences for your character to say, too, but then the conversation continues for a bit and your character responds on his own once or twice. It's also a decent system, as you can usually judge what the responses will be like based on the sentence you pick, but it gives you less total control compared to the first system.

And then there's the nowadays sadly very popular, but very shit system used by Mass Effect and many other modern RPGs and RPG-lites: the dialogue wheel that only gives you a couple of words or a vibe, and then your character says sentences that are totally different from what you actually chose. Let's say an NPC greets you and the dialogue wheel gives you "Hello old friend.", "Fuck off." and "Greetings." as options. You choose hello old friend because it sounds like a cordial but relatively neutral greeting option. But then your character blurts out "Ayooo whazzup my nigga, long time no see, how's it going my boy?" which is absolutely not what you expected would come. That is all too common in this kind of system: you make a dialogue choice based on four small three-word responses, which your character then turns into full sentences - which often are tonally completely different from what you expected, making you go "Wait, that's not what I actually wanted to say."

You should go for either type 2 or type 1. Type 3 is a shit system that should go the way of the dodo, the sooner the better.

1. Do you bother with the game if it isn't committed to the RPG design fully and what are your reasons? I.E. Lack of customisable character in my example above.

Yes because I like a whole lot of different genres. RPGs, adventure games, RTS, FPS, platformers, whatever. As long as the gameplay is good.

2. Do you ever rate games that aren't fully RPGs among your favourites?

I like Thief THIS much.

An example I can think of is how Dark Souls has very little choice when it comes to the story but obviously the character creation and leveling systems are absolutely in the spirit of role-playing.

You don't know what an RPG is.

Dark Souls is an action RPG through and through, and the lack of story and narrative choices has zero impact on that. Did Wizardry have lots of narrative choices? Might and Magic? The original Ultima? Dungeon Master? Diablo?
No. Character development is the #1 defining feature of an RPG. If it has character development, it is either a full fledged RPG or has RPG elements. If there is no character development at all, then it doesn't even have RPG elements.

If your game has a branching story but zero character customization - neither cosmetic (sex and appearance), nor mechanic (stats, skills, abilities etc), nor in equipment (armor, weapons, etc), then it doesn't have RPG elements. It is merely an action or adventure game with a branching story.

RPG = you get to develop your character.

 

[Darth Canoli]

1. Do you bother with the game if it isn't committed to the RPG design fully and what are your reasons? I.E. Lack of customisable character in my example above.

2. Do you ever rate games that aren't fully RPGs among your favourites?

1. No.

2. What kind of fucking retarded question is that ? Yes, i liked playing pong back in the days but if a game is labeled as "it could almost be a bad cRPG in a parallel universe if cRPG didn't exist", it's just another dog shit i don't want to taste.

 

[aweigh]

1. Do you bother with the game if it isn't committed to the RPG design fully and what are your reasons? I.E. Lack of customisable character in my example above.

2. Do you ever rate games that aren't fully RPGs among your favourites?

1. Yes. A good RPG comes along like once every 5 years or so, if I didn't "bother" with games that are not RPGs then I would barely ever play video games.

2. Yes. Why wouldn't I hold a game that is good in high regard, or count it amongst my favorites?

 

[J_C]

Thread is shit, OP is a faggot....I mean, welcome to the Codex, I hope you will enjoy your stay here.

As for me, I play every type of games, so not being a fully fledged RPG is not a gamebreaker at all. The best thing of the current climate is that we are getting some very good RPGs, but we also get action-RPGs and non-RPGs as well.

And actually my most favourite game of all time is not an RPG (Thief: The Dark Project), so yes, I rate non-RPGs among my favourites.

 

[DJOGamer PT]

RPG = you get to develop your character.

The problem with such simple definitions as this, is that we get on a slippery slope of what is and isn't an RPG.
I mean Character Progression Systems have been a staple of all kinds of genres since forever.

 

[Thal]

RPG = you get to develop your character.

The problem with such simple definitions as this, is that we get on a slippery slope of what is and isn't an RPG.
I mean Character Progression Systems have been a staple of all kinds of genres since forever.

It's quite simple really: if it doesn't have character development, it can't be an rpg, no matter what else is in there. Doesn't mean that it's the only requirement.

 

[Got bored and left]

I can't believe we're on post #22 and not one soul said "bUt wHaT iS aN aRRpeeGeee".

Tsk, tsk.

 

[JarlFrank]

RPG = you get to develop your character.

The problem with such simple definitions as this, is that we get on a slippery slope of what is and isn't an RPG.
I mean Character Progression Systems have been a staple of all kinds of genres since forever.

It's quite simple really: if it doesn't have character development, it can't be an rpg, no matter what else is in there. Doesn't mean that it's the only requirement.

This. If your game claims to have "RPG elements" because there's a branching story, but there is literally zero character development, it doesn't actually have RPG elements no matter what you write on the box.

 

[Falksi]

1. Do you bother with the game if it isn't committed to the RPG design fully and what are your reasons? I.E. Lack of customisable character in my example above.

2. Do you ever rate games that aren't fully RPGs among your favourites?

.

1. Yes. Assassins Creed: Origins is one of the best games I've played this year. It's tons of fun, and manages to keep things interesting somehow despite being very shallow.

BUT, and it's a big Beyonce mama from the Ghetto butt, it's not in any way an RPG nor should never be thought of as an RPG. I had a ton of fun with it because I picked it up cheap, and hadn't once looked into the game itself, so wasn't expecting anything RPG-ish. I was expecting a typically shit Popamole affair which the early games were. I played through the entire thing expecting pure Popamoley and that's not far off what I got, I just got a bit of added depth too.

The lesson here is, be honest about what you create. If it's an action game with a smattering of RPG elements like AC:O, tell it as it is.

2. Yes. If it's good as they say on John Madden 92, "it's good!".

Do you think Witcher 3 was aimed at the mainstream and so the dialogue wasn't as cRPG as it could've been? I have plans to replay it over Christmas to evaluate it myself.

100% aimed at the mainstream. The dialogue was absolutely shit, nowhere near what a cRPG, or proper RPG for that matter, should be.

All 95% of conversations were was having Geralt ask questions which game more information, and offered absolutely no player interaction.

There's a troll here > how big is the troll? > how hard is the troll? > does the troll have a dick or vagina? > Has Jimmy Savile ever molested the troll? etc. etc.

I think if ever there's an example of how dialogue shouldn't be done it's TW3. After a few hours of playing anyone with any real life Perception skillz, were asking themselves "why bother asking another question? I don't care because the answer will tell me nothing that a) helps my quest, b) is interesting, c) offers me any interactivity."

 

[Grauken]

1. Do you bother with the game if it isn't committed to the RPG design fully and what are your reasons? I.E. Lack of customizable character in my example above.

Depends, if I have the choice between playing another action-adventure or another full-blown RPG with party creation and TB combat, I most likely would choose the ladder in most cases (and given the history of our genre, there a literally hundreds of games I could play), but if your game has a very unique mood and setting that sets it apart from all the other games of its ilk and good controls as well, I might check it out

2. Do you ever rate games that aren't fully RPGs among your favorites?

Yes, but these are usually the true classics, stuff like Doom or Zelda ALTTP or Hollow Knight. I'm not saying you won't make a classic, but its exceedingly unlikely