D&D 5E Discussion

[Cryomancer]

thought out garbage like 3.5, where you need tier lists just to see if you'll be overshadowed in your supposed area of specialization! Imagine that being necessary,

But you have tiers on 5E. Check here > https://www.dndbeyond.com/forums/du...s/7108-5e-class-tier-list-a-bit-more-in-depth

Yep. 3.5E is poorly balanced but that is the unique "flaw" of that edition. 4E in other hands is extremely balanced but is the unique good thing about the edition.

 

[Bara]

After playing 5e for a few weeks now (though we're at level 2 still) think I've got a fair sense of early game mechanics.

It's fine and fun. My only minor complaints are I'd say compaired to early editions or osr is that it feels slower to me at times and theres not really a fear of character death in most encounters and pcs feel a little too stong compaired to other games.

DM has sprinkled in dangerous monsters though that will kill us if we're foolish enough to engage without a plan instead of just avoiding which helps.

Only thing I don't really like is cantrips that can directly do damage. It just does not feel cool to use if you can cast that over and over again without expenditures of resources rather they be minor utility only. I'd take a wand of magic missles with limited charges any day or just using a sling.

Looking forward to level 3 and seeing how the sub-classes change things.

 

[Larianshill]

If you have no fear of death before level 3, your DM is absolutely going easy on you. It should be a constant fight for survival until around level 5.

 

[Bara]

We have had people hit 0 its just by that point the foes are also in battered conditions and death saves being a saftey net.

But yeah I do suspect hes holding back still at times.

 

[Larianshill]

Does he ever have enemies attack downed PCs?

 

[Bara]

Nope but god I wish he would. Would make the situation actually tense trying to finsh of the remaining foes while covering our wounded.

Like it would be great if he would for example have the bandits grab a downed ally and put a dagger to their throat starting a hostage scenario and punishing for letting them continue the fight near our downed party members.

Sadly he goes with a "their focused on the standing active threat not the knocked out one" each time so we're only really going to have a downed ally die unless its full tpk.

But his table his rules and hes a cool guy so I live with it hopefully the punch pulling stops at 3rd level.

 

[Gyor]

All the hype and build up for Week of Legend Lore and Dragon Talks 300th episode, and the big reveal that folks actually care about is done over Twitter when confused fans ask if James Wyatt's book is still happening, because folks expected that was the big announcement.

James Wyatt's book is coming in October, between Witchlight and Strixhaven, but actual details will come at D&D Live.

It's shocking that they have a book coming out in September, October, and November. Oh wait we will find out "soon" if it's a book or a box set.

 

[Mortmal]

It's not a nu age idea, its as old as D&D . Basic rules had 36 levels , thats huge and require considerable amount of time, hardly anyone was playing that long but it has immortal rules. You are challenging the gods in the end and become one. Those books are DM porn well worth reading of course hardly anyone reach that part, and thats why nowaday you only see BX in retroclone as they were the most fun parts for most people, no champion, no master no immortal...Then in 2E it was even better with stat blocks , even some crpg were covering that. Pool of radiance, curse of the azure bonds gateway to savage frontier , secret of the silverblades end with the pool of darkness module where you challenge bane itself. Krynn trilogy end up fighting tarkhisis too. Damn SSI disappearing was a huge blow to the crpg hobby.
D&d was always a powertrip, and in my opinion DMing is to make it fun for the players, if they want to play it sandbox and ascend in the end, as a DM i make it possible..to try.

We disagree here.
Roleplay games have evolved from multiple aspects. One is the wargaming scene, which was involved with tactical combat, another is the improv scene, which involved people trying to act, another was the novel scene, who wanted a good story. All those things were supposed to come together to create a fun and interesting mix, the pinnacle of entertainment. There were always heroic stories, but those were more in the form of mythology-like heroism. Mythological heroes since time immemorial were specifically written to teach lessons to humanity by being grounded and extremely flawed. At some point superhero comicbook fags thought that wasn't fun for them, so they turned everything into steaming piles of horseshit about miss-and-mister-oh-so-special.

I don't consider myself harsh, but I don't write or GM to be a slave to a bunch of autists who barely have two braincells to rub together and want to use my effort to powertrip. I don't twist the world to fit player fantasies, it's their job as players to fit appropriately into the world.
After all, within 15 minutes, a good writer GM can create an NPC more interesting than anything the average redditor D&D player could come up with as a character concept, and that's painfully obvious these days.
No monster or hideous races, no attempting to use the game as a sandbox where anything is possible, no taking out your sexual or violent fantasies, no dogshit drama. Some of the few, very reasonable rules I have for my games. If they consider any of those things 'fun', they can go die in a ditch. A very deep one.

I am no slave to a bunch of autists, those are my friends and i am happy to deliver entertainment . First and foremost , i am responsable for everyone having fun. I tend to have a buddhist approach of dming, kill the ego , and think of the community interest. Always doubt , evaluate and adapt, nothing is set in stone, and the story is something you need to alter, its collaborative story telling .
You set your expectations first , and those suit me well, always said what i wanted to do was classic D&D . So i am doing what i do best , dungeon crawling tactical combat, i dont go for a medieval conversation simulator with inane and boring stuff. I noticed no one is really interested for long winded descriptions either, just go for the essentials ,it works and it works faster in 5E . Classic d&d means power trip , gaining loot and levels , its as old as D&D, you end up battling gods similar to antiquity mythology .

You dont like the powertrip ?It's a common criticism as old as D&D.

You want something else ? Why use D&D ? More complex with more depth, why use D&D ?!? you go for chaosium games, call of cthullu, vampire the masquerade or any of the plethora of indies , those are amost as old . We had a french system called MEGA back in the day playing galactic agents in every settings possibles . That required 2 engineers to help build my character but it was pretty cool. Not only rules were deep and complex but you had extensions in casus belli and jeux et strategies. An exemple from 1988 :

 

[Rean]

You dont like the powertrip ?It's a common criticism as old as D&D.

Correct.
Every game needs to have a structure that is respectable. Allowing anything so certain individuals can compensate for their depressing lives is not the type of game I'm interested in.

The difference here is that while my friends (subconsciously) know that everything I do and set up is for their benefit, my universes are believable and realistic enough for them to get immersed and become an intrinsic part of the world, interested and invested. I don't even ask for dice rolls unless absolutely necessary. They know if they fuck up, there will be terrible consequences, much like in the real world. Everything is based on exploration, discovery and using the player's wits, not a bunch of garbage numbers on a sheet.

What you want to run is a dice-simulated Superman sandbox, with you asking for rolls and determining outcome. You like to make players feel powerful, to the extent that there is no need for a world setting backdrop or even a game in the end. Where is the potential for failure? Do they care if they lose a character or 10? Why not just give them the loot and their kingdoms and be done with it, since they obviously know the outcome?

You want something else ? Why use D&D ? More complex with more depth, why use D&D ?!? you go for chaosium games, call of cthullu, vampire the masquerade or any of the plethora of indies , those are amost as old .

The D&D system is adequate, and most importantly, malleable. 5E can be changed to accommodate anything very easily, much like every other edition aside from 4E.

Incidentally, this is the kind of thinking I grew up with and the playstyle that expert GMs promoted in the past. Not sure who you played with, but it doesn't sound like oldschool.

Spoiler

So i am doing what i do best , dungeon crawling tactical combat, i dont go for a medieval conversation simulator with inane and boring stuff. I noticed no one is really interested for long winded descriptions either, just go for the essentials ,it works and it works faster in 5E . Classic d&d means power trip , gaining loot and levels , its as old as D&D, you end up battling gods similar to antiquity mythology .

I see. In the same vein of your earlier criticism, why use D&D 5E to do combat heavy dungeon crawls? There are other systems better for these purposes.

3E is way more fleshed out and promotes min-maxing.
Pathfinder involves number-crunching 10³ times better and facilitates the heroic feel more. The PF community also loves RAW.
Dungeon Crawl Classics does the one thing you're looking to do extremely well, as it's its only purpose.

But no. I'm sure you can make 5E work at your table. We've already been over the reasons why. Game > System.

I used to think OSR was the 'best' system for what I wanted to do, as it removes a bunch of inane things so it intrinsically promotes a more grounded understanding of the game and asks for mature play.
Then I realized the system used does not matter. It's just a bunch of numbers and arbitrary rules. And any good GM will use the system to help facilitate his game, not the other way around. Old GMs and people like The Angry GM have been talking about this for quite a while, but in a world filled with CRITTERS! the voices of reason are drowned.

 

[Rean]

What would you say (as a professional GM) is the BEST alignment?

While it's important to note that all alignments are bad, but the best out of bad options is clearly Lawful Good, objectively the most heroic out of nine.

What are your top 5 D&D builds? (I like to do as much damage as possible, lots of XP to harvest from the goblins!)

Well, there's no real wrong way to play. We're not talking about some terribly thought out garbage like 3.5, where you need tier lists just to see if you'll be overshadowed in your supposed area of specialization! Imagine that being necessary,

I agree with all of this. No criticisms.

 

[Mortmal]

You dont like the powertrip ?It's a common criticism as old as D&D.

Correct.
Every game needs to have a structure that is respectable. Allowing anything so certain individuals can compensate for their depressing lives is not the type of game I'm interested in.

The difference here is that while my friends (subconsciously) know that everything I do and set up is for their benefit, my universes are believable and realistic enough for them to get immersed and become an intrinsic part of the world, interested and invested. I don't even ask for dice rolls unless absolutely necessary. They know if they fuck up, there will be terrible consequences, much like in the real world. Everything is based on exploration, discovery and using the player's wits, not a bunch of garbage numbers on a sheet.

What you want to run is a dice-simulated Superman sandbox, with you asking for rolls and determining outcome. You like to make players feel powerful, to the extent that there is no need for a world setting backdrop or even a game in the end. Where is the potential for failure? Do they care if they lose a character or 10? Why not just give them the loot and their kingdoms and be done with it, since they obviously know the outcome?

You want something else ? Why use D&D ? More complex with more depth, why use D&D ?!? you go for chaosium games, call of cthullu, vampire the masquerade or any of the plethora of indies , those are amost as old .

The D&D system is adequate, and most importantly, malleable. 5E can be changed to accommodate anything very easily, much like every other edition aside from 4E.

Incidentally, this is the kind of thinking I grew up with and the playstyle that expert GMs promoted in the past. Not sure who you played with, but it doesn't sound like oldschool.

Spoiler

So i am doing what i do best , dungeon crawling tactical combat, i dont go for a medieval conversation simulator with inane and boring stuff. I noticed no one is really interested for long winded descriptions either, just go for the essentials ,it works and it works faster in 5E . Classic d&d means power trip , gaining loot and levels , its as old as D&D, you end up battling gods similar to antiquity mythology .

I see. In the same vein of your earlier criticism, why use D&D 5E to do combat heavy dungeon crawls? There are other systems better for these purposes.

3E is way more fleshed out and promotes min-maxing.
Pathfinder involves number-crunching 10³ times better and facilitates the heroic feel more. The PF community also loves RAW.
Dungeon Crawl Classics does the one thing you're looking to do extremely well, as it's its only purpose.

But no. I'm sure you can make 5E work at your table. We've already been over the reasons why. Game > System.

I used to think OSR was the 'best' system for what I wanted to do, as it removes a bunch of inane things so it intrinsically promotes a more grounded understanding of the game and asks for mature play.
Then I realized the system used does not matter. It's just a bunch of numbers and arbitrary rules. And any good GM will use the system to help facilitate his game, not the other way around. Old GMs and people like The Angry GM have been talking about this for quite a while, but in a world filled with CRITTERS! the voices of reason are drowned.

Of course very high level D&D characters are like super heroes, teleport , resurrect, wishes fly etc.. That doesnt prevent making it lethal still, they still can fail their saves, not prioritizing targets is still deadly. One exemple i had an high end encounter in a room filled with large mirrors, they had to roll saves against petrification but had no idea why. I had medusas placed behind the see through mirrors, the gaze were still affecting them but they could not know what they were dealing with . Statistically if they dont react fast they are going down. Same things for save or die spells, plenty of way to make high end d&d hard and deadly.
You can make a believable and realistic setting without limiting your players ambitions and imagination , a small barony , kingdoms, empires and ascension. There's no reason to not end up a campaign with a god fight when your players are skilled and reach that point . There's a misconception ,i am not giving anything easily , i am allowing to attempt everything. Most people are slaughtered in first levels, veteran can go to the end. No they dont have miserable lives...
As for why 5e i gave the reasons enough, but i could do the same with any retroclone or pathinder, it doesnt matter much.

 

[Cryomancer]

very high level D&D characters are like super heroes, teleport , resurrect, wishes fly etc..

Fly is a 3rd tier spell. Teleport on 3.5E was a 5th tier spell. Now on 5E is a 7th. But is very hard to challenge a high level party on 5E. On 3,5E and 2E, was different. I almost wiped a entire party of lv 17 players when DMed as a enemy lich on the underdark, in two rounds.

Many people complain that 3E and previous editions after lv 13+ becomes more mage : the ascension than dungeons & dragons, but Tome of Battle for 3.5E solved that problem by making martial classes supernatural too. Because lets be real, martial classes on 3.5E/Pf1E was trash. For example, a slayer to get a OHK ability on failed FORT save which he can only use daily required lv 20. A lv 13 necromancer could use finger of death twice per day and damages the enemy even if he succeed his save.

Tome of Battle solved this problem in a more interesting way. "shadow maneuvers" like Shadow Stride gave teleport as a 5th tier manuver like a caster would have dimensional door at this point. Iron Bones is akin to greater stoneskin. Inferno Blast(9th tier) is deadly as meteor swarm(9th tier). Many people criticized that it is "too animu", but just don't pick the flashy maneuvers(mostly desert wind ones), just pick maneuvers like bone crusher, mountain strike, disarming strike, feral deathblow(...) Talking about Tome of Battle, there is any conversion of it to 5E?

I an curious about how they will make certain maneuvers work on 5e.

 

[Larianshill]

there is any conversion of it to 5E?

I've seen at least one, and linked it to my ToBfag player. He didn't like it, said it fundamentally failed to be what ToB was. Short rest/long rest resource mechanic just doesn't mesh well with basically at-will abilities from ToB. If you can do Mountain Hammer only two times per short rest, and the rest of the time you're doing basic attacks, are you really a Warblade?

 

[Cryomancer]

Yep. A port of Tome of Battle into 5E would't be faithful. You will have to "divide" the maneuvers by at will/per short rest/per long rest, change maneuvers who deals attribute damage into disadvantage on attribute check, change the maneuvers which gives DR into giving resistances among a lot of alterations. In other words, the "swordsage" and other classes, would be a completely different class on 5E. Like Warlocks which are completely different on 3E and 5E.

One thing which I miss is the Eldritch Glaive. A full round melee attack as warlock. High risk/high reward attack.

 

[Tyranicon]

One thing I don't get is why Wizards of the Coast is so stingy about AOE/multi-enemy attacks for martials. Outside of something like a sentinel opportunity attack build, there really aren't that many AOE options for martials at all.... while casters get loads of options.

 

[Caim]

One thing I don't get is why Wizards of the Coast is so stingy about AOE/multi-enemy attacks for martials. Outside of something like a sentinel opportunity attack build, there really aren't that many AOE options for martials at all.... while casters get loads of options.

Caster supremacy must be maintained.

 

[TumblingTorin]

One thing I don't get is why Wizards of the Coast is so stingy about AOE/multi-enemy attacks for martials. Outside of something like a sentinel opportunity attack build, there really aren't that many AOE options for martials at all.... while casters get loads of options.

It's not like they haven't done AoE attack for martials before. 3e had Whirlwind Attack, which required Dex 13, Int 13, the feats Combat Expertise, Dodge, Mobility, and Spring Attack (While metamagic don't have requirements). They are probably have the same problem as Paizo, where they try to treat non-magic characters realistically (There have been arguments between players and the book writers about if certain things would be possible to do irl) and magic using classes can do whatever they want because IT'S MAGIC, I AIN'T GOTTA EXPLAIN SHIT.

 

[Lhynn]

Fly is a 3rd tier spell. Teleport on 3.5E was a 5th tier spell. Now on 5E is a 7th. But is very hard to challenge a high level party on 5E. On 3,5E and 2E, was different. I almost wiped a entire party of lv 17 players when DMed as a enemy lich on the underdark, in two rounds.

Many people complain that 3E and previous editions after lv 13+ becomes more mage : the ascension than dungeons & dragons, but Tome of Battle for 3.5E solved that problem by making martial classes supernatural too. Because lets be real, martial classes on 3.5E/Pf1E was trash. For example, a slayer to get a OHK ability on failed FORT save which he can only use daily required lv 20. A lv 13 necromancer could use finger of death twice per day and damages the enemy even if he succeed his save.

Tome of Battle solved this problem in a more interesting way. "shadow maneuvers" like Shadow Stride gave teleport as a 5th tier manuver like a caster would have dimensional door at this point. Iron Bones is akin to greater stoneskin. Inferno Blast(9th tier) is deadly as meteor swarm(9th tier). Many people criticized that it is "too animu", but just don't pick the flashy maneuvers(mostly desert wind ones), just pick maneuvers like bone crusher, mountain strike, disarming strike, feral deathblow(...) Talking about Tome of Battle, there is any conversion of it to 5E?

Tome of battle was good, but none of the classes were above or even on par with any full caster class. It didnt solve the issue, it just made the difference between full casters and the plebs more apparent.

The same problem is still there in 5e, its just delayed until level 17+.

 

[Cryomancer]

The same problem is still there in 5e, its just delayed until level 17+.

And how many 5E players ever played past lv 17? On 5E, even otherworldly adventures like descend to arvenus end at lv 13. I believe that THAC0 said that in therms that monsters that you can fight on 5E compared to previous editions, lv 13 is about the same of lv 18 on previous editions. Anyway, Pathifnder has a similar book to tome of battle. Path of war

Lastly : 4E is a good edition. GURPS 4E is a good edition. hu3hu3hu3

 

[Bara]

Well apparently wotcs got a new survey thats giving random sets of people a special video and questions but making you agree to a nda.

Word on the street is its just them doing their own virtual table top which is anything like mtg arena it'll probably suck.

Also apparent 4 more setting books from my understanding 2 being classics and 2 brand new non mtg settings.

Supposedly people saw Flint of dragonlance on the video thats behind nda. So I guess Dragonlance is back but I think this is going to be without weiss or hickman.

I rember them reciving and making side comments about wotc so unless the hatchet got barried between the two groups I think they're trying to kick the two to the curb.

 

[Mortmal]

The same problem is still there in 5e, its just delayed until level 17+.

And how many 5E players ever played past lv 17? On 5E, even otherworldly adventures like descend to arvenus end at lv 13. I believe that THAC0 said that in therms that monsters that you can fight on 5E compared to previous editions, lv 13 is about the same of lv 18 on previous editions. Anyway, Pathifnder has a similar book to tome of battle. Path of war

Lastly : 4E is a good edition. GURPS 4E is a good edition. hu3hu3hu3

How many ? i know at least 4 . Must be very very few , less than 1% of the player base i bet. Apparently i am the only DM who managed it for them in every campaigns they played. Thus, they bow before me and refer me no longer by my name but as maestro , or master, a well deserved title I must say... The end game is doable, made sure every walls is filled with poisonous gas or high pressurrized acid in case they want to pass through and every teleport are rerouted in acid bath closed rooms. Why acid ? the less frequent immunity , i took the design from some demon lord fortress in the eternal blood war, i read that in some old edition and it still applies as usual , probably planescape stuff. End game adventures you better design the dungeon like those.

 

[deuxhero]

You want something else ? Why use D&D ? More complex with more depth, why use D&D ?!? you go for chaosium games, call of cthullu, vampire the masquerade or any of the plethora of indies , those are amost as old .

The D&D system is adequate, and most importantly, malleable. 5E can be changed to accommodate anything very easily, much like every other edition aside from 4E.

5E's very limited rules can be melded to things, but they still remain fundamentally broken.

 

[aleph]

I rember them reciving and making side comments about wotc so unless the hatchet got barried between the two groups I think they're trying to kick the two to the curb.

Hatchets usually get buried fast if there is money to be made in working together.

 

[Caim]

Word on the street is its just them doing their own virtual table top which is anything like mtg arena it'll probably suck.

Remember the virtual tabletop thing they did for 4e?

Exactly.

 

[Cryomancer]

Watching a Dark Sun on 5E stream(don't remember the channel) : The party invented a "democratic" city in Athas, they had pronouns after their character name, SJW hairstyle on 2/3 of the party, the party gets a "desert ship" at lv 1.

Watching a Dark Sun on 2E stream(Lawful Stupid RPG playlist ) : The party is enslaved, only escapes cuz the caravan is attacked but they remain branded as slaves, they almost died on the first encounter, almost died from thirsty cuz the half giant gladiator "Rah" drink a lot of water...

I watched the 5E stream due curiosity on how 5E would handle a setting where everything is harsh...