D&D 5E Discussion

[Caim]

For eg, a Lich can be defeated by a lv 14 party on 5E with some problems.

In BG2 you can bitchslap hoboliches right after leaving Irenicus dungeon.

Yep. I love BG2 but the way that they handle "liches" is just awful. They could just call it "skeleton mages". I wish that CRPG devs had developed time and effort to make a AI good as the "Deep Blue" to play this highly intelligent enemies. I like when CRPG's allow you to play as a Lich/Vampire(mainly vampire) but I don't think that it can work in most TT campaigns. And also think that lichdoom should have high costs involved. The quest to become a lich on M&M VII was not easy. And certainly, it should't be allowed on lower levels. Here is the requirements to become a lich on 5e

Lmao just assemble the Cloak of the Undead King, git gud at Necromancy and start shitting out Lichens by the busload.

 

[Cryomancer]

long list of epic (EPIC!) spells doesn't make an antagonist interesting in any way

Imagine the following adventure

"you enter in the castle, after fighting hordes of juju zombies, gargoyles, ghosts, vampires slaves, and all types of abominations, dealing with traps that can kill any mortal who fails to resist the trap, fighting chimeras made from villagers corpses in a twisted mockery of life and bone golems, many members of your party died but now you have a chance to get revenge. You face the all might dark lord, Strahd. He looks at you and casts the allmight, all powerful, magic missile, then he starts to run because as he is out of spells and don't have any other supernatural ability..."

This doesn't sound like a Ravenloft Dark Lord for me...

Note : I din't mentioned a single epic level spell here. In fact, most spells that I mentioned that Strahd has on 2e are mid level spells.

What is a darklord? If the "dark powers" are the king, the dark lords are his "nobles", owning lands in the realms of dread and forever bounded to his own domains. What do you expect? Fight a high level necromancer dark lord and have him casting magic missile? There are martial characters among the dark lords like Lord Soth(which appears on Dragonlance), a deathknight with extremely high stats, resistances, a fear aura and other abilities. However, most iconic high level darklords are necromancers. Strahd, Meredoth, Tsien Chiang, all lv 16+ necromancers. Vecna was also a Dark Lord for some time. The unique Dark Lord who manage to break free from the realms of dread.

TL;DR - How dare someone suggest that a Dark Lord in a Ravenloft setting should be a terrifying enemy. That is heresy. All Dark Lords should be converted into lv 1 fighters. That would make then terrifying enemies /sarcasm

 

[Reinhardt]

That's exactly what we talking about. You can't imagine evil mastermind other than someone who must face you in direct shit throwing contest. Supragenius intellect!

 

[aleph]

long list of epic (EPIC!) spells doesn't make an antagonist interesting in any way

TL;DR - How dare someone suggest that a Dark Lord in a Ravenloft setting should be a terrifying enemy. That is heresy. All Dark Lords should be converted into lv 1 fighters. That would make then terrifying enemies /sarcasm

Way to miss the point. In a horror setting, antagonists are terrifying because they are unknown (or even unknowable) or out of reach or always a step a head of the protagonists. If you would read more about the 5E version of Curse of Stradh instead just the stat blocks, you would have noticed that Stradh is a powerful and terrifying antagonist there if played correctly (stays out of reach, almost impossible to kill if inside his castle without the proper tools/knowledge).
No one is saying he (or any other dark lord) should just be able to cast magic missile or be a lvl 1 fighter, but just overloading him with powerful spells just makes him yet another powerful mage. Boring and pointless, and doesn't fit with the vampire theme. Why play a horror setting like ravenloft at all if you don't care about horror or thematically appropriate antagonists? If just want to fight powerful mages (vampires or not) just play Forgotten Realms or any other kitchen sink setting.

 

[GreyViper]

Hi can someone give a bit of advice regarding crafting, im currently playing 1Fighter/4 Cleric of The forge Arakoran journeyman. I know the Blessing of the Forge has much potential, but so far I have just recycled most of the trash we get and lately turning them into jewellery/art pieces so they could sell for full vallue. Since the limit is 100gp value for a metal object that can be created after every half rest, so is there something interesting that could be assembled piece by piece if we leave armours aside?

 

[Cryomancer]

You can't imagine evil mastermind other than someone who must face you in direct shit throwing contest. Supragenius intellect!

Where I said that? I wrote that not to say "what is the best way to deal with strahd" is just to show how silly the idea of not having a powerful dark lord of a large dungeon is. If you try a mindless invasion and frontal confront on his castle, is obvious that you will gonna die without even reaching close to him.

There are low level darklords? Sure, but their domain of dread is just like a small 'theater'. Not a freaking country.

antagonists are terrifying because they are unknown (or even unknowable) or out of reach or always a step a head of the protagonists(...)him with powerful spells just makes him yet another powerful mage.

And to be out of reach, they need to be far above what the party can do.

"yet another powerful mage", Strahd is a lv 16 necromancer on 2E domains of Dread. I watched a 5E stream of him and he fells more like a mid level rogue...

nd doesn't fit with the vampire theme.

Doesn't fir the vampire theme? What? Since Bram Stoker wrote Dracula as a guy who can shapeshift, create massive thunderstorms, which is capable of destroying a small city(which puts it in par with tier 9 magic on D&D), could teleport among other things. Vampires always was aristocrats living in luxurious castles with a lot of powerful spells.

 

[aleph]

And to be out of reach, they need to be far above what the party can do.

There are other ways to be out of reach than just being super powerful due to having powerful spells or abilities. Like being physically out of reach or having a large organisation as protection or an unknown place of residence...

Doesn't fir the vampire theme? What? Since Bram Stoker wrote Dracula as a guy who can shapeshift, create massive thunderstorms, which is capable of destroying a small city(which puts it in par with tier 9 magic on D&D), could teleport among other things. Vampires always was aristocrats living in luxurious castles with a lot of powerful spells.

That's what you took away from Bram Stoker's Dracula that being a vampire is about living in a castle and having powerful spells? Not about being a parasitic monster that likes to play mind games?

 

[Cryomancer]

Like being physically out of reach or having a large organisation as protection or an unknown place of residence...

I agree, but all Dark Lords, even the high level "just another mage" casters has it. Vecna in Cavitius has a army of "zealot followers". Strahd has a lot of "creatures of the night", Meredoth has a lot of really nasty traps, constructs and undeads. Most parties on 2E die without even reaching the dark lord.

Even if you somehow exploit the weakness of Strahd(his love iwth Tatiana) and somehow lure him to a trap and kill him, he can just assume mistform and "reform" on his coffin few moments later enraged. The best way to deal with dark lords is to exploit some obsession of then. And still extremely hard.

That's what you took away from Bram Stoker's Dracula that being a vampire is about living in a castle and having powerful spells? Not about being a parasitic monster that likes to play mind games?

Nope. By Mystra, You guys like to distort everything that I say... I just mentioned some this traits to say that Dracula, the most popular vampire is akin to a high level caster, never said that "everything about dracula is his awesome spells". Even before he become a vampire, he was a caster.

On chapter 23 of the classic novel "He dared even to attend the Scholomance, and there was no branch of knowledge of his time that he did not essay."

----------

But all of this discussion only because you distorted "high level necromancers would't be satisfying villains on 5E" to "if a enemy doesn't have a lot of powerful spells, he doesn't worth" which I never said. There are countless of terrifying dark lords that aren't casters and are great. Lord Soth is IMO the most iconic Death Knight ever.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord_Soth

And has a very rich story.

 

[Caim]

Didn't Lord Soth escape Ravenloft by becoming a doomer and boring the Dark Powers so badly he got kicked out?

 

[Cael]

Like being physically out of reach or having a large organisation as protection or an unknown place of residence...

I agree, but all Dark Lords, even the high level "just another mage" casters has it. Vecna in Cavitius has a army of "zealot followers". Strahd has a lot of "creatures of the night", Meredoth has a lot of really nasty traps, constructs and undeads. Most parties on 2E die without even reaching the dark lord.

Even if you somehow exploit the weakness of Strahd(his love iwth Tatiana) and somehow lure him to a trap and kill him, he can just assume mistform and "reform" on his coffin few moments later enraged. The best way to deal with dark lords is to exploit some obsession of then. And still extremely hard.

That's what you took away from Bram Stoker's Dracula that being a vampire is about living in a castle and having powerful spells? Not about being a parasitic monster that likes to play mind games?

Nope. By Mystra, You guys like to distort everything that I say... I just mentioned some this traits to say that Dracula, the most popular vampire is akin to a high level caster, never said that "everything about dracula is his awesome spells". Even before he become a vampire, he was a caster.

On chapter 23 of the classic novel "He dared even to attend the Scholomance, and there was no branch of knowledge of his time that he did not essay."

----------

But all of this discussion only because you distorted "high level necromancers would't be satisfying villains on 5E" to "if a enemy doesn't have a lot of powerful spells, he doesn't worth" which I never said. There are countless of terrifying dark lords that aren't casters and are great. Lord Soth is IMO the most iconic Death Knight ever.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord_Soth

And has a very rich story.

Lord Soth's most feared power is his Death spell, dude. It is his spell-like abilities that makes him so terrifying in-universe.

 

[Larianshill]

Didn't Lord Soth escape Ravenloft by becoming a doomer and boring the Dark Powers so badly he got kicked out?

Lord Soth can't be viewed separately from his creator, who really, really didn't want any Soths in Ravenloft.

 

[Reinhardt]

There are low level darklords? Sure, but their domain of dread is just like a small 'theater'. Not a freaking country.

Nigga, i'm saying even superpowerful mega lich dragon demigod don't need to personally throw fingers of death at some retarded "adventurers" to be seen as powerful and dangerous. It's not just stats, spells and immunities.

You like to talk about elemental planes and abyss and epic adventures as opposed to lvl 1 fighter slaying kobolds in sword coast, but your mindset is of lvl 1 fighter slaying kobolds, not of plane traveller. "Big bad's lair, me charge, me kill his servants, he waits me in main room, me crush." It's just instead of magic missiles you throw meteor swarms at each other.

 

[Cryomancer]

Didn't Lord Soth escape Ravenloft by becoming a doomer and boring the Dark Powers so badly he got kicked out?

On wikipedia

" The creators of Soth argue that they did not give their permission for Soth to be used in the Ravenloft Campaign setting.[citation needed] However, they had no legal ownership of the character and, at the time Soth was moved, were not associated with TSR or Wizards of the Coast.

Wizards of the Coast has been vague on the subject but the last official word on the subject was that Soth did indeed enter Ravenloft but that the Mists returned him to Krynn at the very instant he was removed.[12]"

That said, after "Dragonlance authors drop $10M lawsuit against Wizards of the Coast" https://www.polygon.com/2021/1/11/2...t-dismissed-dragonlance-dungeons-dragons-wotc

Soth on 5E Ravenloft is virtually impossible. Lets hope that Woketards of the C*** puts another death knight so interesting as him on the 5E book. But I doubt that they can achieve that. Vecna probably would't be there since 5E is after Die Vecna Die. I honestly wanna see new Dark Lords. Imagine if iconic characters from Neverwinter on 3E and casters lead to insanity during spellplague are now the new dark lords... Or even if Kalak from Dark Sun end up as a dark lord. That would be cool. I know that technically he is "dead" but I would love to see him as a Dark Lord. Amon Jerro from NWN2 OC becoming a Dark Lord also would be interesting.

"Big bad's lair, me charge, me kill his servants, he waits me in main room, me crush." It's just instead of magic missiles you throw meteor swarms at each other.

By the love of Mystra, where I said that I would mindless charge on enemies? And how many times I need to say that I think that evocation is overrated on 2E and 5E and that meteor swarm is extremely overrated? That my favorite schools are conjuration, alteration and necromancy?

 

[Reinhardt]

where I said that I would mindless charge on enemies?

Yeah, yeah, you would INTELLIGENTLY charge on enemies. Sorry, my bad.

 

[aleph]

Meredoth every second word you write is about how one or another spell is great, or how awesome this spellcaster is because of his powerful spells. So don't complain you are seen as the Dragonball "its over 9000" guy.

 

[Cryomancer]

charge on enemies

Nope. I would try to lure the enemy out of his lair where he lost the greatest advantage. But If I enjoy a mindless H&S game, what is the problem? RPG games are supposed to be fun. I literally detailed how my first S&W session was on other thread. Started with a druid using "shapeshift" to scout the area and ended with the party talking his way out of a extremely hard combat. And now, few sessions later we had a lot of cool stuff, including a naval battle.

ne or another spell is great, or how awesome this spellcaster is because of his powerful spells. So don't complain you are seen as the Dragonball "its over 9000" guy.

Nope. My last thread was about Dark Sun : Wake of the ravager. I only mentioned magic to say how the game is not magecentric despite the higher lv cap https://rpgcodex.net/forums/threads/dark-sun-wake-of-the-ravager-is-underrated.138316/

As for Dragon Ball, Dragon ball magic is just energy beams with few exceptions like mafuba technique and babidi. Anyway, sorry for commiting the heresy of liking the magic in a high fantasy game.

 

[Reinhardt]

I would try to lure the enemy out of his lair where he lost the greatest advantage.

AND THEN YOU WILL THROW METEOR SWARMS AT EACH OTHER! See - you still think you are his equal and he should care about your spellpenis contest. You are not. He has

freaking country

and you are murderhobo.
Seriously - why would he leave his lair to face you?

 

[Larianshill]

Woah, Dragon Ball Z really is an apt comparison. I haven't seen this level of wankery on power levels for a while.

 

[Nortar]

and you are murderhobo.
Seriously - why would he leave his lair to face you?

Is not that what dungeon boss Dark Lord exists for?

 

[Snorkack]

Woketards of the C***

By the love of Mystra

RPG games

Your posts make me physically twitch, man. Reading this is the semantic equivalent to fingernails on chalkboard. Haven't heard the 'Dungeons & Kobolds' line from you in a while, fits that impression as well.

 

[Cryomancer]

Woah, Dragon Ball Z really is an apt comparison. I haven't seen this level of wankery on power levels for a while.

Dragon Ball Z power scaling is just silly. The classic Dragon ball in other hands is quite interesting in power levels. I just don't like why on so many animes, they start with interesting power VS power and strategy to become "who has the bigger energy ball". Naruto is the most iconic example. Things become too way out of proportion on the 4 tails vs orochimaru. One shonen which has maintained the interest from long time is Hiatus X Hiatus. Strategy is important on HxH since the hunter exam till the end of anime.

Anyway, I doubt that even Elminster can nuke solar systems out of existence like DB chars can.

why would he leave his lair to face you?

Each Dark Lord has his "weaknesses". Strahd for example is obsessed for Tatiana. But I really wanna to see new Dark Lords on 5E ravenloft.

 

[Reinhardt]

Strahd for example is obsessed for Tatiana.

You are Tatiana or what?

 

[Cryomancer]

Strahd for example is obsessed for Tatiana.

You are Tatiana or what?

If I can polymorth an NPC to look like Tatiana, I can exploit his weakness. Obviously I would need to find info about her, a portrait of her and if he suspects anything, he can try to cast dispel on her only to be sure. Is not a perfect plan. And that is what makes Ravenloft so amazing. Your plans will probably gonna to fail hard.

Ravenloft is not the typical adventure where you will probably defeat the dark lord and escape ravenloft. In the great majority of the time, you will probably die or worse....

 

[aleph]

Strahd for example is obsessed for Tatiana.

You are Tatiana or what?

In Victor's case, I guess it depends on Tatiana having 9th level spells or not.

 

[Cryomancer]

I guess it depends on Tatiana having 9th level spells or not.

Nope. One of the factors that make him so terrifying is that he can cast higher tier magic(8th) while the party can't. Giving high magic to the party would destroy the sense of dread and hopelessness. Maybe giving a scroll of wish to save the party once during the entire campaign is OK, but even the minions of the Dark Lord should overpower the PC's and require careful planing to be dealt with.

I enjoy power fantasies? Yes. Do I think that Ravenloft should be a power fantasy? No.