Crypts of Avaritia - design discussion and feedback

[r3jonwah85]

Hello codex,

I have been lurking here for a while and felt content with simply reading all the great stuff here, but since I have started working on a game of my own I thought I'd register and perhaps get to discuss some design of the game.

The game I am referring to is called Crypts of Avaritia and you can see some stuff here:

http://www.indiedb.com/games/edit/crypts-of-avaritia

Crypts of Avaritia is a combination of randomly generated dungeons together with a first person view with gameplay similar to Dungeon Hack. It will feature online co-op and single player (similar game modes, only more or less players).

Since it is very early in the process not a lot is set in stone, although I have a general idea of what direction I want to take it and have a lot of handwritten notes that I use for reference.

Some pictures from those that don't want to click on the link :

So any comments, suggestions, questions and I would be happy to discuss them. For example, I am working on a health system with general health, stamina, thirst and hunger, you can also get poisoned, get cuts and bleed and lastly break bones, and you have to cure yourself since this breaks you down over time.

Another thing is perma-death, this is a feature I am going to aim for as the main gameplay mode (adds nice tension and you have to think before acting), but some might like to be able to save and perhaps also disable the extensive health system? Probably wouldn't be that hard to make different modes so people can choose for them self. I am thinking that some compromise would be the ability to save between levels (when a new dungeon is generated). For now the player can at least set the random seed if they wan't to share or play through the same dungeon twice.

Anyways, I am just ranting a bit here, I guess all I wan't is some discussion going.

 

[r3jonwah85]

Well I take that as a compliment! Anyways, yes, Daggerfall is a inspiration and I am looking at a lot of videos of older dungeon crawlers while designing new elements and just to get a general feeling of the atmosphere in those games (I have updated my description at Indie DB just after posting this to reflect this fact).

 

[Crooked Bee]

A new first person roguelike would be most welcome; so far the only good one I've played were Dungeon Hack and Daggerfall (if you count that one). I hope you finish this one.

Extended health system sounds good. Can't really comment on anything else.

 

[Alchemist]

Looks like a cool project I'd definitely keep an eye on. I've always thought it would be nice to see the Dungeon Hack idea extended upon, with modern technology. I'm a fan of roguelikes and 1st person cRPGs - if you mash the two together well I'll be on board.

I like that you have working ladders. Maybe wall climbing would be possible too like in Daggerfall?

 

[Ninjerk]

Co op design sounds good if the encounters are there.

 

[r3jonwah85]

Looks like a cool project I'd definitely keep an eye on. I've always thought it would be nice to see the Dungeon Hack idea extended upon, with modern technology. I'm a fan of roguelikes and 1st person cRPGs - if you mash the two together well I'll be on board.

I like that you have working ladders. Maybe wall climbing would be possible too like in Daggerfall?

First off, thank you. Second, the wall climbing is actually a really good idea I have not yet thought of, would probably be really simple to implement. Will try it out when I get home. It actually adds to some other ideas I have already, my prototype levels have a lot of secret areas and seemingly inaccesable areas that requires you to jump on objects or find hidden rooms with one-way teleportals. So climbable walls with a subtle visual hint would be a nice addition to this.

 

[r3jonwah85]

Co op design sounds good if the encounters are there.

Thanks, co-op is actually what drove me towards random generation of the dungeons. Since I wanted to be able to play it myself with friends, it did not make any sense in making a pre-determined game world, I would know the world inside out. This way it will still feel fresh even after working on it for a long time (which I assume it will take...).

 

[r3jonwah85]

So climbable walls with a subtle visual hint would be a nice addition to this.

Nah, make it free form climbable every wall based on skill check ( vid ). If you use a visual hint, you'll create more linear experience and less replay value.

Well, I will consider it, but I do not think it will make much sense in the used environment. This game will exclusively be set underground (except for the very beginning/intro), so there won't be mountains per say (only cave walls). And due to the nature of caves (enclosed space), it will not be very interesting to climb a wall when it does not lead you anywhere. What I will definitely do however, is to make the wall climbing affect the stamina depletion, perhaps with such harsh punishment that the player will have to consider wether it is worth it or not. If the player wants to climb alot of walls, they would have to invest a lot of points in increasing their stamina. Another system would to allow player to invest in climbing, and higher level means the player is able to cover more distance or hang on to the wall for a longer time befire the he looses his grip.

Player jump height and run speed will probably be static values (will affect stamina depletion, perhaps also use som type of sprint-meter and jumps per minute kind of thing, which is upgradeable), I did not like the painful first hours of Morrowind when you walked slow as hell and jumped all over the place to raise your level.

The other aspect is the programming part of it, the way it is setup now with using a trigger to snap to ladder (and walls). That would mean placing triggers either manually on all walls and objects, or programming some nice automatic generation on import, but I think that would be a real mess since everthing must align perfectly. So a new system would have to be implemented for very little gain in my opinion (in the current context).

 

[r3jonwah85]

A new first person roguelike would be most welcome; so far the only good one I've played were Dungeon Hack and Daggerfall (if you count that one). I hope you finish this one.

Extended health system sounds good. Can't really comment on anything else.

Thanks, I will post more on the system when it is a bit more tuned, maybe there will be more to discuss then.

 

[felipepepe]

Add flying/levitate spells! :D

 

[Mastermind]

So climbable walls with a subtle visual hint would be a nice addition to this.

Nah, make it free form climbable every wall based on skill check ( vid ). If you use a visual hint, you'll create more linear experience and less replay value.

Well, I will consider it, but I do not think it will make much sense in the used environment. This game will exclusively be set underground (except for the very beginning/intro), so there won't be mountains per say (only cave walls). And due to the nature of caves (enclosed space), it will not be very interesting to climb a wall when it does not lead you anywhere.

You sound like a mainstream developer. Don't be that guy.

 

[Ninjerk]

You could make parkour wall running instead of climbing lol. Like in that ninja warrior TV show where there's a platform and the contestant has to run on the wall to another platform to proceed.

 

[Alchemist]

What I will definitely do however, is to make the wall climbing affect the stamina depletion, perhaps with such harsh punishment that the player will have to consider wether it is worth it or not. If the player wants to climb alot of walls, they would have to invest a lot of points in increasing their stamina. Another system would to allow player to invest in climbing, and higher level means the player is able to cover more distance or hang on to the wall for a longer time befire the he looses his grip.

I like the stamina mechanic you described - definitely limiting climbing in some way makes sense to me. Imagine you climb a high wall for some secret niche and get attacked by some monster when you reach the top. If you have low stamina, you're out of breath and can barely swing your sword. That makes for some good tension.

 

[r3jonwah85]

What I will definitely do however, is to make the wall climbing affect the stamina depletion, perhaps with such harsh punishment that the player will have to consider wether it is worth it or not. If the player wants to climb alot of walls, they would have to invest a lot of points in increasing their stamina. Another system would to allow player to invest in climbing, and higher level means the player is able to cover more distance or hang on to the wall for a longer time befire the he looses his grip.

I like the stamina mechanic you described - definitely limiting climbing in some way makes sense to me. Imagine you climb a high wall for some secret niche and get attacked by some monster when you reach the top. If you have low stamina, you're out of breath and can barely swing your sword. That makes for some good tension.

I prototyped a climbing mode when I got home today (place holder graphics), tried to capture some video of it but it looks like utter shit I am afraid. Adding the stamina penalty is next up, probably will fix that tomorrow together with some crude GUI to display stats while playing, right now everything is seen in the editor only.
Anyways, hope this is view-able (climbing starts at 50 seconds or so):

 

[r3jonwah85]

I have now implemented lock-picking , it is just a matter of balancing it. Right now I am using this kind of system:

Lock level goes from 1-5 at the moment (as does lock picking skill level), will have to think of whats reasonable when all comes together, but I think it is not that bad for now.

The game mechanic works like it does in Gothic, you press left and right to pick the lock, when you begin a new sequence is generated (which stays the same until you give up or succeed, but if you leave the chest and come back, a new sequence will be in place). If you press the correct direction you will proceed in the sequence, if the incorrect direction is pressed you will start over and there is a chance that your lock pick pin will break (low level, high chance, high level, lower chance).

Also, if a chest lock is above your level, you can't even begin to pick it.

The current equation looks like this:

sequenceLength = Mathf.Max(3 , ((lockLevel + 6) - playerSkills.lockPickLevel));

This means that if a chest is level 1, a player with level 1 in lock picking skills have to clear a sequence of 6, a player with skill level 5 will have to make 3, 4 gets 3, 3 gets 4, 2 gets 5.
If chest level is 2, level 2 player gets 6, level 5 gets 3, 4 gets 4, 3 gets 5.
If chest level is 3, level 3 player gets 6, level 5 gets 4, 4 gets 5.
If chest level is 4, level 4 player gets 6, level 5 gets 5.
If chest level is 5, level 5 player gets 6.

So that means if you are on level, you will always have to make 6 picks right, and each level above reduces this with 1, plus the fact that your lock pick pin gets lesser chance of breaking.

So tell me what you think, any improvements or suggestions? One concern is that you might not get enough credit for being high level picking a low level lock, but I think it will be best to balance this out using the break pin chance.
What I like about this system is that there is both role playing skill and player skill involved, you will have to make notes to remember what directions was pushed to get it done (or keep it in memory, your choice).

And you might recognize the sound effects I use, they are place holder since I do not own the right to those (can you guess the game they are taken from?).

 

[r3jonwah85]

Just a quick look on some new features, mainly the inventory, the need for lockpicks to be able to pick locks and just some walking around in the sewers (you won't teleport to them once in place, the will be the underground of the underworld ).

How do you guys feel about weight of items? I think it can sometimes be annoying (when the game throws items at you, playing Arcanum I spend many hours managing everybody's inventory, huge pain in the ass having to manage both weight and space), but I think it is a must in this game to get a nice overall feeling of being alone in the dungeons. Inventory space will be the same for all characters (will try to get this one reasonably high, gui programming sucks though), but impact on fatigue (and walk/run speed?) will be controlled by stats.

Does anybody know a really good game with food/water management, weight, injuries etc? I am flipping through the manual of Dungeon Master and think that looks pretty good for inspiration.

 

[Cool name]

Does anybody know a really good game with food/water management, weight, injuries etc? I am flipping through the manual of Dungeon Master and think that looks pretty good for inspiration.

Robinson's Requiem and Wilderness: A survival adventure.

 

[hoverdog]

in rpgs, Realms of Arkania series.

 

[Haba]

Does anybody know a really good game with food/water management, weight, injuries etc?

UnReal World.

 

[r3jonwah85]

Robinson's Requiem and Wilderness: A survival adventure.

in rpgs, Realms of Arkania series.

UnReal World.

Thanks guys, I am looking at Realms of Arkania of course, kind of hard to ignore that one having spent some time at the codex. UnReal World I actually glanced at this weekend, luckily I glanced a second time, seems to have some good ideas. The same with Robinson's Requiem, seems kind of funky story-wise

Anyway, have been working on a new feature yesterday and tonight, came out pretty nice and graphically cheap although I was raging at my lack of programming skills a couple of times, took me 3-4 different prototype ideas before I got what I wanted in look and feel. The idea is to have dive sections that will lead to secret areas or other areas in general, how long you can hold your breath is controlled by stats.

 

[Lhynn]

Well, I will consider it, but I do not think it will make much sense in the used environment. This game will exclusively be set underground (except for the very beginning/intro), so there won't be mountains per say (only cave walls). And due to the nature of caves (enclosed space), it will not be very interesting to climb a wall when it does not lead you anywhere.

You sound like a mainstream developer. Don't be that guy.

Wish i could brofist this

 

[Ninjerk]

Robinson's Requiem and Wilderness: A survival adventure.

in rpgs, Realms of Arkania series.

UnReal World.

Thanks guys, I am looking at Realms of Arkania of course, kind of hard to ignore that one having spent some time at the codex. UnReal World I actually glanced at this weekend, luckily I glanced a second time, seems to have some good ideas. The same with Robinson's Requiem, seems kind of funky story-wise

Anyway, have been working on a new feature yesterday and tonight, came out pretty nice and graphically cheap although I was raging at my lack of programming skills a couple of times, took me 3-4 different prototype ideas before I got what I wanted in look and feel. The idea is to have dive sections that will lead to secret areas or other areas in general, how long you can hold your breath is controlled by stats.

Deus Ex had this in Hong Kong to an extent; there were breathing apparatuses, a swimming skill, and an augmentation that could be combined in varying degrees to allow you to reach said areas. How will this compare?

 

[r3jonwah85]

Deus Ex had this in Hong Kong to an extent; there were breathing apparatuses, a swimming skill, and an augmentation that could be combined in varying degrees to allow you to reach said areas. How will this compare?

Well, that is actually not a bad example of a system that I like, my first thought was to purely check the how long you can hold your breath and be done with it. But the more I think of it, it gives you more choices and does not force you to invest point in agility (swim speed) or stamina (hold breath time) if you also have scrolls/spells that you can pick up and temporarily buff those stats for a certain time. It does not seem much harder to work out anyways (a few extra lines and some spell effects), so that is what I am going to try to put in there.

When it comes to level design(seperate tiles) the idea is to leave the choice to the player much like in Deus Ex. To make that system work (as in not force warrior type killing sprees), there probably won't be any XP given for killing or any other action. Instead of using XP, I will use skill points in the shape of magic items or spells that are spread out across the world. But to access the skillpoint, the level design will allow you to use brute force and kill the guarding enemies, or you can choose a secret path that is locked and needs lock-picking skills, or you can try to sneak around if you have invested skills in sneaking. And in some cases you will have the option to climb or swim to get to a secret path that leads you to the desired skillpoint. At least this is the idea, me myself always go for the non-combat option in for example Deus ex, I just like the tension it brings and that is something I would like to transfer to this game.

 

[r3jonwah85]

OK, so I have been a bit absent from here and other places (not that many seem to care ). This is in part due to my graphics card breaking down and I am waiting for a replacement, and in part due to a business trip to Columbia, SC (Five Guys was the highlight of the trip, the rest is better left without comment, but oh my, those Cajun spices...). Without my main computer I can't get any 3D-modelling work done since it would be a pain in the ass to install all the needed software etc.

Anyways, still got some programming done and the game actually runs OK on my laptop equipped with a Intel HD Graphics 4000, guess that is a good sign.
Except fixing bugs I have worked on some skill/ability controlled mechanics such as certain level of strength is needed to push some objects that may hide secret passages or enable the player to jump to higher places. Other things is agility controls run and jump ability, you get fall damage now, perception controls if some traps are visible or not (the type that poisons/cuts/breaks bones, not the insta-death ones, would seem kind of unfair). The lock-picking is being refined, I have got a crude GUI working, the game sends messages to a player console so you what is going on (tells you if a trap is spotted, if you broke a lock-pick etc), it will all be shown once I can use my main computer again.

I have also been reading a lot of manuals (Arena, Daggerfall, Arx Fatalis, Dungeon Master 1/2, Dungeon Hack, Robinson's Requim, Wheel of Time, Arcanum, Drakensang and some more) and picked up some nice ideas also reading the AD&D SRD but it does not really tell you the underlying equations of certain checks and such (does anyone know of a source for this kind of calculations, please tell me).

To try and post something to discuss and get feedback on, this is my current check if you break a lock-pin after a failed attempt:

function breakLockPick(){
if(playerSkills.lockPickLevel - Random.Range(0 , playerSkills.lockPickLevel + lockLevel) <= 0 ){
for(var t:Transform in inventory.Contents){
if(t.name=="Lockpick"){
picklockItem = t.GetComponent(Item);
inventory.DropLockpick(picklockItem);
}
}
gui.message = "You failed to pick the lock, broke a lockpick and started over.";
}else{
gui.message = "You failed to pick the lock and started over.";
}
}

So that means if the player is level 4, the lock level 2, there is a 2/6 chance that the lock-pick will break, if the player is level 5 the chance is 2/7 etc (Random.Range can never be the highest number of the range). The chance of breaking will always be 50% if the player is on the same level as the lock, and the general equation is:

(lockLevel) / (lockPickLevel + lockLevel)

With system it gets progressively harder, being level 5 picking a level 3 lock is harder (3/8) than a level 3 player picking a level 1 lock (1/4). And as previously stated only a player with equal or higher level can begin to pick a lock as well. So does this seems like something that is reasonable? Do you have comments or any other suggestions for this kind of system? One thing that I have thought of if the player were not to be informed the his/her level is to low, that way the player will keep breaking lock-pins without knowing if there is a chance to succeed or not, but I guess that will be kind of tedious.

 

[r3jonwah85]

A bunch of tunnels can come alive with water (that you need skills to do right), pits (with skills for jumping and usable ropes), torches (that you can affect), and skills that can let you dig, blast, or cave in areas.

After reading a nice post by Human Shield (the one above) in this thread I got some inspiration to add a new feature: digging. It fits in well with the other skills and how they are implemented, and it gives me more design freedom in level design. It is a simple implementation but it does the job; the soil/rock wall has a toughness/hardness level, the player has a digging skill. If the player has a shovel or a pickaxe and uses it on a "diggable" surface the level of the wall/ground is checked against the player dig level, if the player is higher or equal the object level you start digging which consumes stamina in the process.

So far the skills, attributes and magic that are present are:

//Attributes
var strengthLevel : int = 0; //determines what melee weapons can be used (weapon level set per weapon) and damage done with said weapon (damage is always done if visually so, damage done however is controlled by stats, as in not like in Morrowind where you either hit or not, which is frustrating to me)
var perceptionLevel : int = 0; // control if payer can detect trap, else they are not visually seen (the non instant-death ones), these traps will apply poison, cuts and break bones.
var agilityLevel : int = 0; //control run speed and walk speed, jumping
var manaLevel : int = 0; //controls mana restored by items, also mana depletion when using magic
var dexterityLevel : int = 0; //control damage done by crossbows and bows (arrow always go in the aimed direction, but damage done is controlled by skill. This is done to avoid annoying stuff like in Morrowind where it is hard to tell if you are hitting or not)

//calculate these with the use of attributes?
var staminaLevel : int = 0; // control how long player can go without sleeping, control by time or travel length? Combination?
var hungerLevel : int = 0; //controls how fast the player gets hungry
var thirstLevel : int = 0; //controls thirst, gets depleted over time or movement? Combination?

//Resistance to effects on player, used to calculate effect/punishment for each state
var playerPoisonResistance : int = 0;
var playerBleedResistance : int = 0;
var playerCrushResistance : int = 0;

//Skills
var lockPickLevel : int = 0; // determines which locks can be picked and if lockpick breaks on failed attempt
var climbLevel : int = 0; //determines climb ability, set level on climbable walls?
var swimLevel : int = 0; //determines speed under water and how long you can hold your breath
var sneakLevel : int = 0; // determines radius of where enemies becomes aware of player (if seen, test with raycast), also time that you can be seen?
var huntingLevel : int = 0; //being able to pull meat from slain enemies and animals, higher the skill the more meat you are able to get of a given source
var digLevel : int = 0; // player being able to dig in ground on certain spots, level determines soil toughness that can be dug in

//Magic
var fireMagicLevel : int = 0;
var waterMagicLevel : int = 0;
var earthMagicLevel : int = 0;
var windMagicLevel : int = 0;
var spiritMagicLevel : int = 0; //old necromancing branch

So does anyone have any input to this? Looks like shit or seem enjoyable?

Also, regarding some older discussion i have actually looked into levitation spells a bit and that seems like it is a fun feature to access rare locations, flying/levitation will however be strictly bound to temporary effects.