Codex interview: Broken Hourglass

[Vault Dweller]

<a href=http://www.planewalkergames.com/content/view/32/46/>The Broken Hourglass</a> is a promising indie title, inspired by the Baldur's Gate series and being developed by Jason Compton's team of BG modders. We asked Jason Compton <a href=http://www.rpgcodex.com/content.php?id=135>a few questions</a> about the game:

<blockquote><b>5. Another unusual design decision is the magic system. It reminds me of my TIE Fighter days: one energy pool that feeds both shields and engines. The more energy spent on shields - the stronger they are ... and the weaker your engines. Decisions, decisions.... So, please explain the system and what it may offer to avid mage players?</b>

That's a good analogy. In that game you had a fixed pool of energy and you could split it up among laser charging, shield charging, and engine velocity. In our game, you have a fixed pool of energy and you can split it up among offensive spells, defensive and protective spells, healing spells, and wielding (and thereby controlling) magic items.

What it means for mage players is that you get to spend more of your time actually casting spells, and less time doing things that bog mages down in other systems like

- Deciding what spells to memorize
- Chugging mana potions
- Withholding magic because "we might need it in a bigger fight coming up."

It also means that you can interactively switch a mage from being an "offensive" mage to a "buff" mage, instead of having to make a daily (wizard) or a career (sorcerer) commitment to that path as a d20-style mage would. </blockquote>Sounds like a very interesting and refreshing system. <a href=http://www.rpgcodex.com/content.php?id=135>Read the rest here</a>.

 

[GhanBuriGhan]

Nice interview. The magic system is indeed a somewhat fresh idea, and actually sounds like it could play out well. Overall I get the impression that these people really have thought their project through. A little more info on the quest, dialogue and campaign design would have been nice. How do they hold it with the choice and conseqeunce mantra?
This is certainly one of the more hopeful indie RPG's in development.

 

[Elwro]

An interesting read! I'll be looking out for this one. I especially liked the comments about magic and somehow the idea of a whole game set in one city appeals to me.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Overall I get the impression that these people really have thought their project through.

That's my impression too.

A little more info on the quest, dialogue and campaign design would have been nice.

We'll keep in touch with Jason and cover the project as it shapes up.

How do they hold it with the choice and conseqeunce mantra?

His answer to the first question is a good indicator. In other words, I would expect a BG-level of choices & consequences, whatever that means to you.

 

[Volourn]

No dwarves, no go.

 

[Lumpy]

In our game, you have a fixed pool of energy and you can split it up among offensive spells, defensive and protective spells, healing spells, and wielding (and thereby controlling) magic items.

Huh? Isn't he basically saying that they're using a mana system without mana potions?

 

[Vault Dweller]

In a very general way, yes. Only instead of consuming available mana points with each spells until replenished by a potion, you can cast spells all day long, just like a swordsman can swing his sword all day long. The only difference is the flexibility & customization such system gives you. You can switch instantly from pure offense to strong defense to mix of whatever it is. The strength of your spells depends on the amount of energy allocated to them.

 

[Admiral Rimjob POOBUM]

His answer to the first question is a good indicator. In other words, I would expect a BG-level of choices & consequences, whatever that means to you.

Eh. Not bad, I guess.
Magic system sounds very interesting, and could turn out extremely well. Or highly overpowered.
Any idea on the release date? I do hope it's not October. Everything's coming out in October.

 

[Claw]

It was about time someone presented an original magic system.
I am very happy about this "magic potential" instead of consumable mana.
I've only waited for it since the Wheel of Time FPS. Now what was so difficult about that?

 

[don_tomaso]

@lumpy: he is saying that you have unlimited ammo, but you have to choose your ammo well.. I think

edit: oh eh nevermind, took me half an hour to press submit

 

[FrancoTAU]

I like the sound of the magic system. If you're going to do BG 2.5, I like that they're trying something different along with the clonage factor.

Any timeframe for the release? I realize asking for a specific date or even month is silly, but I mean is it coming this year? 1st half of 07? etc

 

[galsiah]

In general the magic system seems like a good idea, but I worry about this:

You can switch instantly from pure offense to strong defense to mix of whatever it is.

Depending on the restrictions on switching (e.g. if there are none), this might create an optimal strategy of constantly switching back and forth - i.e. encouraging annoying micro-management.

It's similar to one of the main issues of RTwP combat. Yes, it's versatile, and allows the player to choose how he wants to play. It also positively encourages annoying micro-management. The fact that it's the player's decision whether he wants to be annoyed by the interface, or annoyed by doing less well than he might be, doesn't remove the design problem.

If the different magic setups mostly affect what strategies the player can use, but keep his overall effectiveness in most situations pretty much constant, I think I'll like it.
If the effectiveness of different setups varies significantly with the immediate situation, I'll get annoyed by the incentive to keep switching.

It's great to see something new being tried - and it certainly has its good points. I just hope that they're bearing this sort of thing in mind, and don't think "Well - the player can choose how often he switches." is an excuse for the potential problems.

 

[zenslinger]

Bring it on.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Any timeframe for the release? I realize asking for a specific date or even month is silly, but I mean is it coming this year? 1st half of 07? etc

I'd say 2007.

Depending on the restrictions on switching (e.g. if there are none), this might create an optimal strategy of constantly switching back and forth - i.e. encouraging annoying micro-management.

Did you play TIE Fighter? It was done really well in that game without "annoying micromanagement". Love that game.

 

[suibhne]

Nothing personal, VD, but this setting sounds a bit more compelling to me than AoD's, just because of my personal preference for somewhat twisted, darker fantasy worlds and general disinterest in Roman Empire-inspired settings.

I'm disappointed these guys are going RTwP, especially because it's a party-based game, but I take some consolation in the fact that they've designed with RTwP systems for several years and the entire combat system is predicated on that. Combat probably won't be as much fun for me as, say, ToEE - and maybe not as much fun as AoD - but at least it might get the job done without too much irritation or exploitability. Heck, I figure it probably won't be any worse than BG2, and it might be much better (since much of the problem with BG/BG2 was related to the piss-poor IE pathfinding and combat encounters poorly designed in the context of the gameworld).

The interview also seems very short on actual game design - not much talk of skills and their uses, very little about quest design (including multiple solutions, consequences, etc.). It's difficult to tell if this'll be a wholly linear paint-by-numbers with a really cool setting, a wide-open complex gameworld with branching quests and multiple solutions with real long-term consequences, or something in between like BG2 (i.e. some flexibility in side quests and character-specific quests, but a totally linear and constraining main plot).

As for the magic system - rock on.

Anyway, I look forward to reading much more about this, particularly dialogue and quest design.

 

[denizsi]

I have some faith in these guys as well, as they've been on the saner side of Infinity Engine crowds for years and what they have done so far for IE games is quite nice. It sure will be interesting to see how their game will turn out compared to other IE games.

There are more interviews with them around the web, some very informative. You might want hunt down those interviews and create an entry for them in game database.

 

[galsiah]

Did you play TIE Fighter? It was done really well in that game without "annoying micromanagement". Love that game.

No, I never did.

What I'd like is for the switching to be primarily because I want to do things differently - rather than because I've seen enemy X, which I know is best tackled with setup Y.

I guess it's a question of balance. The switching needs to be an interesting decision with pros and cons, rather than a reflex action based on the opposition/situation.
Hopefully they'll do it well.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Nothing personal, VD, but this setting sounds a bit more compelling to me than AoD's...

Why should I take it personally? We all have our preferences and I don't expect AoD to be the most awesome game ever.

There are more interviews with them around the web, some very informative. You might want hunt down those interviews and create an entry for them in game database.

There is an entry. Look for THE Broken Hourglass.

No, I never did.

You should. You are missing out on some serious Star Wars action. One of the very few "Must Play" games.

Hopefully they'll do it well.

Amen.

 

[Volourn]

"I don't expect AoD to be the most awesome game ever."

Too bad your fanboys can't claim the same.

 

[Lumpy]

In a very general way, yes. Only instead of consuming available mana points with each spells until replenished by a potion, you can cast spells all day long, just like a swordsman can swing his sword all day long. The only difference is the flexibility & customization such system gives you. You can switch instantly from pure offense to strong defense to mix of whatever it is. The strength of your spells depends on the amount of energy allocated to them.

So basically, you distribute an amount of Energy among the spells (or skills?), and the amount of points determines the power of those skills.
And what's keeping you from putting all the points in the spell you cast, whenever you cast one? Because, apparently, there's no resting limitation to redistributing energy, since you do it dynamically.

 

[galsiah]

Indeed - there are clearly issues with totally unrestricted switching.

That's not to say there aren't solutions though. So long as the designers don't take refuge behind "if a player wants to play that way, why stop them?", or similar idiocy, they can't help but see the issues.

Here's some off-the-top-of-my-head possibilities:
(*) Make switching take some time - not much, but enough to stop silliness.
(*) Have many spells with medium/long durations, so that reducing power after casting reduces the effects.
(*) Have energy devoted to broad spell areas, rather than individual spells, so that there are very often active effects in each area.

The "long duration" bit will automatically apply to most defensive spells, and it could reasonably be done with quite a few offensive spells. Instant offensive spells could generally be less powerful than long duration ones, since there's the balance of being able to go defensive almost immediately.

If magical combat is really interesting, with many diverse spells having effect at any one time (rather than a fireball dodging contest), then there's a lot that can be done.

In fact, in some ways that's an advantage of this system: to get reasonable balance, it's almost a requirement that there are often many diverse effects in play at a given time.
That might encourage the design of an interesting system.

Also, the lack of any worry about running out of magic should go well with this - there's no reason for a player not to attack with the best possible combination of magics.

 

[jcompton]

And what's keeping you from putting all the points in the spell you cast, whenever you cast one? Because, apparently, there's no resting limitation to redistributing energy, since you do it dynamically.

Here's a quick example. The key is distinguishing between those spells which have zero duration (generally speaking, direct damage spells) and those which have nonzero duration (generally speaking, "everything else.")

Jimmy the Fixer has 50 mana.

If he puts all 50 mana in an Armor spell, he will have 0 mana left to spend until he drops that Armor enchantment.

If he puts 20 mana in an Armor spell, he has 30 mana left. He can then:

- Cast 30-mana damage bolts at enemies. Because this spell has "zero duration" the mana is not consumed. He can cast these bolts again and again, subject to the limits of his casting speed.

- Cast a 30-mana "make my enemy weaker" spell at an enemy. Because this spell has a nonzero duration (it reduces the enemy's Strength attribute and keeps it reduced), this 30 points of mana will be "tied up" in that enchantment until the enchantment is dropped (which during combat will generally happen when combat ends, the caster dies, or the target dies, although the player could interactively choose to drop it as well.) This spell would leave Jimmy with 0 available mana.

- Cast a 30-mana "make my buddy stronger" spell at a party member (or self). This spell also has a nonzero duration, as it makes the friend's Strength attribute higher and keeps it higher, so this 30 points of mana will be "tied up" in the enchantment--again, until either combat ends, the caster dies, or the friend dies, or the player chooses to release the enchantment. He is left with 0 mana.

- Cast a 30-mana "heal my buddy" spell at a party member (or self.) Healing does count as a hanging enchantment, although it doesn't "drop" when the caster dies like other enchantments, because having the healer's death cause the rest of the party to keel over would be confusing and unfortunate. Mana hung up in healing is recovered by rest. (All normal enchantments will also drop upon rest, which includes most "spell-like lingering damage.") He is left with 0 mana.

Or, of course, he can do some combination of above, like put 10 mana into each type of spell. Because it is "free" to do so, direct damage spells presume you intend to use 100% of your remaining available mana since it is free to do so.

Depending on the restrictions on switching (e.g. if there are none), this might create an optimal strategy of constantly switching back and forth - i.e. encouraging annoying micro-management.

Although dropping an enchantment is a free and instantaneous action, casting a spell takes time and is a "drop guard" action (incurs free attacks from enemies who have you in melee range, you do not get much defensive bonus while you are casting, etc.) The TIE Fighter analogy only goes so far--your mana allocation doesn't instantly change at the press of a couple of function keys.

So you would be taking a significant risk trying to constantly drop all of your hanging enchantments, shooting off a firebolt, then re-establishing all your enchantments again. Not to mention burning up a lot of time, during which the enemies will be continuing to try to kill you. You might get away with such a showy move in a squash encounter where the enemies are vastly outnumbered and outclassed, but in such an encounter you probably wouldn't have needed to set up all the fancy buffs and deleterious enchantments anyway.

 

[suibhne]

The more I read about this system, the more I like it (or at least its hype ). But it strikes me that, to be manageable in a RTwP system, or to cut down interface latency even in a TB system, you really need to focus on an efficient interface and powerful hotkey customizability. E.g. you should be able to establish different "mana sets" between which you can freely switch, obviously within the constraints you describe.

 

[Vault Dweller]

And what's keeping you from putting all the points in the spell you cast, whenever you cast one? Because, apparently, there's no resting limitation to redistributing energy, since you do it dynamically.

Same reason why switching all your energy to lasers was a very risky idea in TIE Fighter - you are defensless, and unless you have a good strategy, you are going to be very dead very soon. The switching took time, so you couldn't power up your shields instantly. It worked very well. In fact, it worked so well, that I'll go and look for the disks right now.

 

[Grog]

- Cast a 30-mana "heal my buddy" spell at a party member (or self.) Healing does count as a hanging enchantment, although it doesn't "drop" when the caster dies like other enchantments, because having the healer's death cause the rest of the party to keel over would be confusing and unfortunate. Mana hung up in healing is recovered by rest. (All normal enchantments will also drop upon rest, which includes most "spell-like lingering damage.") He is left with 0 mana.

The bit about healing eating up all of your remaining mana until you rest seems pretty confusing and inconsistent with the other magic effects described. This seems to be implying that if my party's healer goes into action during a battle, unlike all the other mages, he gets whiped out after a few heals and is worthless until after combat and a good night's sleep.

I would think it would make more sense to have it be like the other buffs, where while it's in effect the target is regenerating health at a rate determined by the amount of mana expended. If you're using it in combat, presumably you'd be using it for an extremely short duration so you could give the person a little bit of health to keep going, and then recover your mana for fireballs, healing somebody else, or what have you.