Cheating is endemic in rpgs. Being forced not to reload puts you on disadvantage

[lukaszek]

Its not cheating if everyone does it.

So what if I reload 20x times to get this achievement? Im not going to be in 40% of steam user base that didnt get it.

I'm just fixing RNG. With my 75% hit rate I shouldnt miss twice in a row.

And other lies we are telling ourselves(trojan horse argument, *wink* *wink*)

Save scumming is not specific to rpgs but its where i find it most relevant. In other genres its hard to recreate exact scenario to expect different outcome.
Cheating got this interesting peers-pressure factor. You cheat not to be worse than someone. You cheat because someone else does it so its only fair that you do it too. Hence I'm bringing this to illustrate:

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wo...ese-teachers-try-to-stop-pupils-cheating.html

Riot after Chinese teachers try to stop pupils cheating
What should have been a hushed scene of 800 Chinese students diligently sitting their university entrance exams erupted into siege warfare after invigilators tried to stop them from cheating.

According to the protesters, cheating is endemic in China, so being forced to sit the exams without help put their children at a disadvantage.

By late afternoon, the invigilators were trapped in a set of school offices, as groups of students pelted the windows with rocks. Outside, an angry mob of more than 2,000 people had gathered to vent its rage, smashing cars and chanting: "We want fairness. There is no fairness if you do not let us cheat."

Now putting hurt feelings aside im curious about following: can you estimate what is your real hit chance? If you were to count hits and misses through your game would it be close to in-game 75% or more like 85-90%?

How much peer pressure forces you to have perfect encounters? Im curious how would real hit rate be affected on niche game vs AAA title.

 

[FeelTheRads]

hi guise i didnt do a thread about determinism>rng in 2 days heres another one what do u think

 

[CaesarCzech]

Im between 2-3 in Row depends on the game and the situation, missing 2 times against boss okay makes it somewhat cinematic, But i wont My soldiers shitting like Stormtroopers against freaking sectoid or Cannon fodder.

 

[HeatEXTEND]

How much peer pressure forces you to have perfect encounters?

Zilch. Die, reload, easy.

 

[Black Angel]

Are you sure d20 only fell on your head from top shelf when you were young? Can you now show where on the doll RNG/dice rolls *really* touched you?

 

[CaesarCzech]

Are you sure d20 only fell on your head from top shelf when you were young? Can you now show where on the doll RNG/dice rolls *really* touched you?

Here Comes fallen Angel, we are all too used to their fetishes, but Dicephilia is something weird even for the standarts of the Hell.

 

[Sigourn]

The only time I actively savescummed in an RPG was when I faced Frank Horrigan. I must have died 100 times in that fight. I couldn't reprogram the computers, and I couldn't get the soldiers to side with me.

It's really one of the most unabalanced boss fights I've ever seen in an RPG. Unless you have a build dedicated to it, you won't be able to beat him fair and square without savescumming. Well, technically you can, but I figure it would take many, many, MANY deaths: in the range of hundreds.

Other than that, I don't see the point in savescumming unless the game is terribly designed.

 

[Beastro]

an angry mob of more than 2,000 people had gathered to vent its rage, smashing cars and chanting: "We want fairness. There is no fairness if you do not let us cheat."

Why not chant demanding no cheating take place at all?

One of the odder aspects of human nature is the race to the bottom. Put bad people in a group of good ones and the bad ones don't get better, they influence the good ones into being worse.

The relatively small city of Zhongxiang in Hubei province

Population (2010)
• Total 1,022,514

 

[PEACH]

I'm just fixing RNG. With my 75% hit rate I shouldnt miss twice in a row.

So retarded. You don't even know what you don't know. There's only one right answer here:

How much peer pressure forces you to have perfect encounters?

Zilch. Die, reload, easy.

 

[The Brazilian Slaughter]

The only time I actively savescummed in an RPG was when I faced Frank Horrigan. I must have died 100 times in that fight. I couldn't reprogram the computers, and I couldn't get the soldiers to side with me.

It's really one of the most unabalanced boss fights I've ever seen in an RPG. Unless you have a build dedicated to it, you won't be able to beat him fair and square without savescumming. Well, technically you can, but I figure it would take many, many, MANY deaths: in the range of hundreds.

Other than that, I don't see the point in savescumming unless the game is terribly designed.

To be fair, you're fighting a genetically-tweaked Super Mutant Cyborg in Power Armor pumped full of drugs. Your character is just a dude, at best, a slightly enhanced dude. Horrigan is not even human anymore. They should have made the fight harder.

I actually think that set-up is pretty clever, and kind of a series subversion: You can't ALWAYS get out of conflicts with speech and stealth, but you can use it to make them easier.

There's many ways that fight can go:

1. You fight Frank, the soldiers AND the Turrets. Hardest fight in the series.
2. You fight Frank and the Turrets, soldiers are on your side. Hard but doable, especially if you have your own party alongside the soldiers.
3. You fight Frank and the Soldiers, turrets are on your side. Not hard at all because you can just heal himself with super stims and then start crit-shooting Frank.

There's also the fact you can just trash the turrets at the start, but that's kinda meta-gamey because they don't start hostile and you have zero idea that the end-game fight will happen there. Which also results in:
4. You fight Frank and the Soldiers. No Turrets.
5. You fight Frank alongside the Soldiers. No turrets.

Also, if you went your way slaughtering things through the area and didn't clear the barracks area before, you will waste time on the barracks and will lose clock time. So, the Horrigan fight will become a timed fight. Last time I finished the game, I think I had two minutes until the Oil Rig blew because I went through the entire barracks shooting, and then to Horrigan.

Enclave Oil Rig is also such a cool area that it feels fulfilling doing it as any build. Its also the ultimate OG Fallout combat romp that makes Mariposa and the Cathedral look easy - every single Enclave Trooper has 200 HP, APA and a end-game level weapon (Gauss Rifle, Turbo Plasma, Pulse weapons, Rocket Launchers, Vindicator Minigun, etc), not to mention the Turrets and killbots.

 

[FeelTheRads]

I couldn't reprogram the computers, and I couldn't get the soldiers to side with me.

Unless you have a build dedicated to it,

Couldn't reprogram the computers, couldn't get the soldiers... well, what kind of build did you have? My guess is a shit build.

Dedicated build. Fucking lol. Here's a "dedicated" build: Gauss Rifle.

 

[Jacob]

Someone really should make a tag for OP related to this deterministic crap. Preferably with a lame deTerminator jokes mixed in.

 

[Sigourn]

To be fair, you're fighting a genetically-tweaked Super Mutant Cyborg in Power Armor pumped full of drugs. Your character is just a dude, at best, a slightly enhanced dude. Horrigan is not even human anymore. They should have made the fight harder.

I'm not saying the fight being hard doesn't make sense. I'm saying it's stupid to use logic to justify a fight being completely unbalanced and against the player. In order to have a chance, I had to metagame destroying the turrets and killing Frank's buddies. It was a really shitty way to end and otherwise really fun game, because enemies can critically hit you, and in the case of Frank Horrigan (if I'm not mistaken) a critical hit essentially means you die. When the fight lasts for so long, you are guaranteed to be critically OHKOd quite a few times.

 

[Commissar Draco]

The only time I actively savescummed in an RPG was when I faced Frank Horrigan. I must have died 100 times in that fight. I couldn't reprogram the computers, and I couldn't get the soldiers to side with me.

It's really one of the most unabalanced boss fights I've ever seen in an RPG. Unless you have a build dedicated to it, you won't be able to beat him fair and square without savescumming. Well, technically you can, but I figure it would take many, many, MANY deaths: in the range of hundreds.

Other than that, I don't see the point in savescumming unless the game is terribly designed.

To be fair, you're fighting a genetically-tweaked Super Mutant Cyborg in Power Armor pumped full of drugs. Your character is just a dude, at best, a slightly enhanced dude. Horrigan is not even human anymore. They should have made the fight harder.

I actually think that set-up is pretty clever, and kind of a series subversion: You can't ALWAYS get out of conflicts with speech and stealth, but you can use it to make them easier.

There's many ways that fight can go:

1. You fight Frank, the soldiers AND the Turrets. Hardest fight in the series.
2. You fight Frank and the Turrets, soldiers are on your side. Hard but doable, especially if you have your own party alongside the soldiers.
3. You fight Frank and the Soldiers, turrets are on your side. Not hard at all because you can just heal himself with super stims and then start crit-shooting Frank.

There's also the fact you can just trash the turrets at the start, but that's kinda meta-gamey because they don't start hostile and you have zero idea that the end-game fight will happen there. Which also results in:
4. You fight Frank and the Soldiers. No Turrets.
5. You fight Frank alongside the Soldiers. No turrets.

Also, if you went your way slaughtering things through the area and didn't clear the barracks area before, you will waste time on the barracks and will lose clock time. So, the Horrigan fight will become a timed fight. Last time I finished the game, I think I had two minutes until the Oil Rig blew because I went through the entire barracks shooting, and then to Horrigan.

Enclave Oil Rig is also such a cool area that it feels fulfilling doing it as any build. Its also the ultimate OG Fallout combat romp that makes Mariposa and the Cathedral look easy - every single Enclave Trooper has 200 HP, APA and a end-game level weapon (Gauss Rifle, Turbo Plasma, Pulse weapons, Rocket Launchers, Vindicator Minigun, etc), not to mention the Turrets and killbots.

Its easy fight you plant plastic explosives on president he dies, you pick his card and turn all robots and turrets against enclave, you also can talk scientist onto releasing FEV inside rig killing all civies. You recruite SGT Bro Granite and Hoorigan dies from their fire + turrets. Its beautiful fight cause its actually much easier when your RP as rouge than warrior.

 

[Taka-Haradin puolipeikko]

You must forgive lukaszek; he lost a loved one to a bad roll of yahtzee.

 

[lukaszek]

deterministic system > RNG

 

[rusty_shackleford]

I'm not a chinaman so I don't cheat

 

[Roqua]

I don't understand the premise. The overwhelming vast majorities of games don't allow save/reload in combat so the question is moot. This would make more sense if you were talking about picking pockets or a lock. Or even opening a chest with random loot. I don't restart a whole combat encounter because I missed. I restart if I am losing the encounter. Unless it is an extremely difficult encounter and that miss means I will lose, then I restart.

If I'm playing a game without ironman mode my chance to pick pockets and locks are 100% if there is something in the pocket or chest I want or it gives XP and I want XP. In ironman if getting caught picking a pocket leads to everyone turning hostile and ruining the game I don't risk it and don't pick any pockets or waste skill points on a useless skill.

The same goes for a game - in FO 1 it allows save scumming in combat. Since it is hugely beneficial to kill everyone at the first raider camp and save scumming makes anything possible I kill everyone at the raiders camp. If FO 1 had ironman I would not attempt killing everyone at the raider camp unless I thought I had a reasonably high chance of being successful at it including getting a string of unlucky crits against me, so I would just skip it and get the lady out peacefully.

It all boils down to mechanics and gameplay. Does the game promote a certain type or not? For instance, ToEE was developed and balanced around Ironman. That means it should be played on Ironman (or my homemade ironman for it since it sometimes corrupts your itonman save).

Do I never cheat in a game? No, I sometimes do to skip what I know I could do if doing it is boring. For instance, some games have pick pocketing with no xp and you get only gold. I will skip the hassle of going around picking all pockets by estimating the average of gold received from picking a pocket multiplied by the number of people I could pick the pockets of. I'm a very rare, selective and discerning cheater. I used the cheat thing for Grimiore to add an item in my party you only get from a specific starting area that is used later. My justification for this was not even noticing you could change starting area so I was making up for the game fucking me out of a choice I didn't even know I had.

If a game has random rolls for stats like Wizardry I do not roll a 4 and say, "Gee, that sucks." I roll until a get a big roll. If I want to start with a Samurai there is a 100% I am starting with a Samurai.

 

[Gnidrologist]

I knew all these stories about chinamen having high IQ is a scam.

 

[Master]

The same goes for a game - in FO 1 it allows save scumming in combat. Since it is hugely beneficial to kill everyone at the first raider camp and save scumming makes anything possible I kill everyone at the raiders camp. If FO 1 had ironman I would not attempt killing everyone at the raider camp unless I thought I had a reasonably high chance of being successful at it including getting a string of unlucky crits against me, so I would just skip it and get the lady out peacefully.

Was it even fun savescumming the entire freaking camp? How long did that take, the whole day? You could've just come back later.

 

[Roqua]

The same goes for a game - in FO 1 it allows save scumming in combat. Since it is hugely beneficial to kill everyone at the first raider camp and save scumming makes anything possible I kill everyone at the raiders camp. If FO 1 had ironman I would not attempt killing everyone at the raider camp unless I thought I had a reasonably high chance of being successful at it including getting a string of unlucky crits against me, so I would just skip it and get the lady out peacefully.

Was it even fun savescumming the entire freaking camp? How long did that take, the whole day? You could've just come back later.

Come back when there is a time limit and when coming back will be far less valuable? I do content as it presents itself when I can. I've played FO2 a million times and lost each time due to time limit. The last couple times I played I even increased the time limit thinking it would help. I clear content as the game's mechanics and my OCD need to check every last nook and cranny as I clear it. Again, if FO1 had an ironman mode I would have done a peaceful option and just skipped it. I would never pick a pocket, and I'd never fight huge armies.

But just as a fan fact - I have gotten into two large arguments in the last year or so with people claiming they can kill the whole raider camp when the first get to it without cheating or save scumming. I just don't see it as a mathematic possibility. These are the same type of geniuses that tell me BG 1/2 had super challenging and tactical combat.

 

[Machocruz]

I'm in America. We play how we want. Fuck yeah!

 

[Strange Fellow]

I've played FO2 a million times and lost each time due to time limit.

You mean FO1, right? Because if not...

Or did I just fail my sarcasm check?

 

[Roqua]

I've played FO2 a million times and lost each time due to time limit.

You mean FO1, right? Because if not...

Or did I just fail my sarcasm check?

No, FO 2. I beat FO 1 at least once. The timer never got me in FO 1. FO 2 every time, clearing content as I do and having to backtrack for quests. Do you skip content or not do it all?

 

[aweigh]

lukaszek

hey man, could you explain why it is that true randomness isn't possible? i read somewhere that a coin flip isn't a flat 50% chance, why?