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Eternity Avowed - Obsidian's first person action-RPG in the Pillars of Eternity setting - coming February 18th

Tacgnol

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Codex 2016 - The Age of Grimoire Grab the Codex by the pussy RPG Wokedex Strap Yourselves In Codex Year of the Donut Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. Pathfinder: Wrath I helped put crap in Monomyth
Yeah I noticed that. Like, Pathfinder has bombs, rapiers and plate armor, even though those all coexisted with firearms. Plate armor even reached its peak when arquebus were introduced.

In fairness, simple muzzle loading firearms aren't super uncommon in the PF setting. They just don't make much of an appearance in many early APs (and are obviously hated by Owlcat).
 

CthuluIsSpy

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Yeah I noticed that. Like, Pathfinder has bombs, rapiers and plate armor, even though those all coexisted with firearms. Plate armor even reached its peak when arquebus were introduced.

In fairness, simple muzzle loading firearms aren't super uncommon in the PF setting. They just don't make much of an appearance in many early APs (and are obviously hated by Owlcat).
Fair enough, I did find it really odd how there's no guns in kingmaker when I'm playing a literal alchemist throwing bombs at people, and when there's a city of gnomes who sells you automatic crossbows, as if those are somehow less technologically sophisticated than simple firearms.
There's a reason why the Chu-ko-nu never really took off.

Good to see Paizo is being reasonable at least.
 
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It's as if people have this weird idea that magic retards technological progress,
Because it would.
In any setting where someone who is smart can learn magic rather than it being something innate, there is a good reason for technology to heavily stagnate.

Hell, this is part of Arcanum's worldbuilding. Dwarves are inherently anti-magical and the reason most technology exists.
 

Nano

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Grab the Codex by the pussy Strap Yourselves In Enjoy the Revolution! Another revolution around the sun that is.
In D&D it's actually in the lore that the Harpers go out of their way to prevent technological progress. Dunno if there's anything similar in Pathfinder.
 

CthuluIsSpy

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It's as if people have this weird idea that magic retards technological progress,
Because it would.
In any setting where someone who is smart can learn magic rather than it being something innate, there is a good reason for technology to heavily stagnate.

Hell, this is part of Arcanum's worldbuilding. Dwarves are inherently anti-magical and the reason most technology exists.
I just don't agree with that.
As magic would be part of the natural world, wizards and scholars would be that world's equivalent of scientists. Being men of learning curious enough to peruse arcane texts, they would be driven to tinker and experiment on their own, which may result in technological advancements, as their findings would either find their way down to aspiring engineers, or even just produced as a way to gain funding for their studies.

Furthermore, if magic is sufficient enough to stagnate technology, wouldn't that mean that the world wouldn't progress pass stone age technology, as society would devolve into a case of whoever can throw the biggest fireball wins?
I just don't see the logic in the world suddenly stopping at an arbitrary technological point all because of some men with silly hats, unless there was a concerted effort to suppress it as part of some sort of political power play. Much like how the Tokugawa shogunate banned firearms and western imports and how the Ottomans banned the printing press.

In D&D it's actually in the lore that the Harpers go out of their way to prevent technological progress. Dunno if there's anything similar in Pathfinder.
That would make the most amount of sense, yes.
 

KateMicucci

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Might as well call medieval fantasy swordpunk at this point, not that it would be inaccurate either considering that what passes as "medieval" is basically an even combination of anything from 12th century to basically 17th century minus the guns.
This is a great observation and a great term. Swordpunk. It perfectly sums up what's wrong with modern fantasy settings.
 

KateMicucci

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I bet all of my money that this will be set ages before POE so they don't have to add flintlock guns.
guns in pillars are matchlock, not flintlock
Kind of, its weird.
The long arms are matchlocks (they are called arquebus), but there were no such thing as matchlock pistols. That's more of a wheel lock/flintlock thing.
Which really doesn't make sense if you're familiar with the history of arms development but that's how it is.
There are extant matchlock pistols in Japan. https://www.bing.com/images/search?q=japan+matchlock+pistols

The sprites for the guns don't match the stated ignition mechanism on most PoE guns. Don't assume that the PoE team had any idea what they were doing.
 

CthuluIsSpy

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I bet all of my money that this will be set ages before POE so they don't have to add flintlock guns.
guns in pillars are matchlock, not flintlock
Kind of, its weird.
The long arms are matchlocks (they are called arquebus), but there were no such thing as matchlock pistols. That's more of a wheel lock/flintlock thing.
Which really doesn't make sense if you're familiar with the history of arms development but that's how it is.
There are extant matchlock pistols in Japan. https://www.bing.com/images/search?q=japan+matchlock+pistols

The sprites for the guns don't match the stated ignition mechanism on most PoE guns. Don't assume that the PoE team had any idea what they were doing.
Wow that's really interesting. The more you know.
 

Delterius

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You have people wearing armor from 16th century that was specifically designed with guns in mind
this should be tattoed on the backs of every gun-phobe from here to cathay

people who can't stomach the only early modern fantasy in the world because it's not '''''''''''''''medieval''''''''''''''' enough are below contempt. medieval fantasy settings have been garbage for 40 years now and they still ask for more of that same slop.
 

copebot

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Industry is more the transformative technique than technology and artisanry alone. The Japanese became one of the world's largest firearm producers in an inordinately short period of time, all without industrial methods. They even became one of the world's leading arms exporters. Magic is hard to distinguish from sufficiently advanced artisanal technique, but industry is what transformed society in a pervasive fashion. The depiction of magic in pop fantasy often has it replacing industry but not necessarily impeding technology per se. One reason why fantasy is compelling is because it depicts pre-industrial social dramas in a dramatic, accessible, and compelling way. Industrialization, although pretty rapid in the some regions, really took quite a long time, and is still ongoing in many regions of the world.

The social difference is perhaps more important than technology. A refrigeration prototype from the early-mid 19th century is a curio -- not too different from a magic item from the D&D manual. Refrigerated train cars are socially transformative: it makes it so the development of cities like Chicago are possible, and industrial workers in cities can now eat meat for lunch. An airplane prototype is a cool project for two brothers with a barn, hand tools, and some know-how. Ubiquitous jetliners that fly around the world selling cheap tickets for seats enables the creation of an entirely new class of business travelers.
 

FreeKaner

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And as Avellone put it during his May of Rage, they succeeded in spite of the owners, not because of them.



The meddling with regard to narrative came from Feargus himself who became even worse when it came to their DSIV pitch according to Avellone. :M

Feargus micromanaging projects seems to be behind some of the biggest issues in Obsidian games.
 
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Something worth considering if you're doing worldbuilding is that the temporal relation inventions have with regards to each other aren't something that should be inherently projected upon another world. For example, if Europe had ready access to natural deposits of nitrates, who knows what course firearms would have taken or when they would have been invented.

I just don't agree with that.
As magic would be part of the natural world, wizards and scholars would be that world's equivalent of scientists. Being men of learning curious enough to peruse arcane texts, they would be driven to tinker and experiment on their own, which may result in technological advancements, as their findings would either find their way down to aspiring engineers, or even just produced as a way to gain funding for their studies.
You've yet to give a reason why beyond "scientific curiosity." I'm sure there are plenty of outdated inventions that could still be invented right now in our world without magic, why aren't they being invented?
I will make exactly one assumption: The light cantrip exists. That's all.

Do you know how much effort went into wiring entire countries up with electricity just to provide lighting? If an average joe could just cast a light cantrip at will that took zero effort, what use is there for the lightbulb? Especially the extremely inefficient and dim early ones that are pretty much nothing like our modern lights and supplying electricity to was a difficult task? Sounds like a small change, right?
We've just made a absolutely massive departure from our history. The reason entire countries wired up with electricity was lightbulbs. The tagline for a 1917 Sear's catalogue was "Use your electricity for more than light"
light.jpg


The light cantrip completely altered history and the progress of humanity irrevocably forever.
 

CthuluIsSpy

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Yeah that is a good point actually. If anyone could just generate light at will that would have considerable ramifications.
The question though is how an average Joe would know how to cast a cantrip, and if everyone had natural magic, wouldn't that result in a society that is considerably different from your average fantasy RPG? Wouldn't that result more in a world like Conan or something, where hierarchies are built by the strength of one's magic and everything is at a relatively low technological state? After all, why bother making swords if you can just throw lightning or pop a magical steroid to punch really hard?
 

Delterius

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Magic is hard to distinguish from sufficiently advanced artisanal technique, but industry is what transformed society in a pervasive fashion.
Exactly. More often than not the dichotomy between the natural and supernatural sciences is fake. Because in most settings 'Magic' is little more than some sort of energy which can be directed and shaped with enough study. The idea that magic stunts technological growth and impedes industrialization is nifty but not always true, case in point:

Both Forgotten Realms and it's carbon copy Golarion have ancient industrial civilizations built on the back of magical research. That was the case with Netheril in the Realms and the Shory Empire in Pathfinder. Automated production lines that churn out Wands of Light Cantrip are indistinguishable from similar factories that create lightbulbs. And that's just the post-apocalyptic parts we live in. Both Golarion and Faerun have space faring civilizations that use and instrumentalize magic. And one has to assume that the guy who created the magical space ships know a thing or two about Mechanics.

In Thedas the dwarves developed industrial mining techniques in order to create their underground empire, complete with underwater tunnels that span the continent. They didn't need gunpowder to do so because they had an equivalent in magically aspected fire salts. Their warfare methods, though steeped in tradition, also make extensive use grenades made out of Lyrium. The dwarves also now wish to learn the secret of gunpowder from the Qunari, but to experiment with all substances instead of just Lyrium and it's derivatives.

Warhammer Fantasy is a very high fantasy world where technological, and magical developments are not mutually exclusive. The elves prefer their magic, the dwarves prefer their guns. But the humans and the ratfolk are perfectly capable of not only using both but marrying them into something else. Like the Holy Laser Beams of Hysh firing side by side with Imperial Cannons. And besides it's not like there are no engineers in Ulthuan, or knowledge of magic among the dwarves.

It doesn't even have to be mentioned but Pillars' Eora is also another setting where technological development is done through a mastery of the supernatural.

Shadowrun takes this one step further and treats magical developments as new facets of the natural world. Elves, Vampires, Monsters are all just new genetic expressions caused by an abundance of mana. They occasionally have strange ties with the ancient unknowns, such as Elves quickly re-developing their dead language for reasons that are mysterious, but the fact that Elves can live a long-ass time is simply genetic. The Elves know it and the Elf Supremacist states do their damndest to stifle any research of that fact. Furthermore, the rise of magic also brought with it the rise of hyper technological development as well.

Even in Arcanum - where the natural and the supernatural are deleterious to one another - you still have a world where the greatest impediment to technological accumulation is not the mere existence of magic. It's political and cultural. Magic-users tend to vanquish advanced civilizations. Those civilizations rise up nonetheless. They take their time mostly because the longer lived peoples who hold onto that knowledge - the dwarves - have no compunction to seek rapid industrialization.

Simply put, whenever magic is sufficiently powerful then a magocracy develops. Once the magocracy is in place it will seek to increase it's own power. This will inevitably develop into an advanced civilization, that will likely fall in some way due to the Law of Telling An Interesting Story.

The kinds of settings where I see Magic being an impediment to industrialization are those where the supernatural is steeped in mystery and ritual. If you can't tame it, there's no pattern. If there's no pattern, you cannot industrialize. Say, Mage: the Awakening. Broadly speaking in the World of Darkness the masses lived under the thumb of magic users. It took the rise of an entire new paradigm of reality - rationalism and shit - to displace traditional magic and create the modern world.
 
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