Crispy™ Are game controllers crap?

[Maxie]

This is a technical question. The chief gimmick of an analog stick-equipped game controller, which simply isn't available to WSAD, is the range of motions in a free-camera 3D environment, as promoted by Mario 64. WSAD, or indeed D-pad, simply doesn't offer such seamless range of motions, relying on clunky double-button diagonals. The twin-stick design is more dubious, since the second stick usually controls the camera, a function fully emulated by any mouse, arguably the mouse is even more precise at it. PC gamers will instantly fall into the mood of correcting imprecise WSAD movement with camera, if the game allows it.

But this is trivial, theoretical shit dating back to Nintendo 64 and PSX. We've seen all types of games being ported and re-ported back and forth, all sorts of weird ass genre combinations being operated by controller or m&k, we have almost three *decades* of experience now to finally answer the question - are controllers, in fact, crap?

I've made the thread specifically to see if anyone enjoys *shooting* with the controller, since I'm currently trudging through Death Stranding and it's a fucking chore to aim there. And yet, there are whole franchises of shooters which have originated on controller-operated consoles, Halo being the biggest. I can generously assume that some genres benefit from the controller.

 

[caffeine]

You should've listened to Lord Gaben back when you had the chance

 

[Bigfass]

No, sticks are for consolefags and losers.

Having said that, controllers get insane aim assist in most games to compensate for how shit they are. This can actually be a benefit in some competitive titles, like Destiny.

 

[deama]

They recently came out with magnetic based keyboards, allowing for analogue input. Sure you won't be able to do a nice smooth 360, but it's more precise than it was with older keyboards.

That said, usually the latency is worse on the controllers than keyboards too.

 

[Zlaja]

3rd person action, platformers and beat 'em ups = controller

FPS, strategy, tactical RPGs and porn surfing = mouse & keyboard

 

[rumSaint]

3rd person action, platformers and beat 'em ups = controller

FPS, strategy, tactical RPGs and porn surfing = mouse & keyboard

this

 

[deama]

Lies, keyboard+mouse is the only true way.

 

[Ezekiel]

Play old console games, notice that many of the driving games did not have camera movement and many of the third person exploration games had fixed camera angles and many of the shooters had automatic aiming. It's because designers knew then that it was too difficult to aim by dragging the camera (Not pointing, but DRAGGING.) with so little tilt and the player could not easily use the stick while placing their thumb on the face buttons. It's contemptible that we have had the same design since 1996, with the games much less simple than they used to be, having so many sub-menus despite the player using only four of ten digits, and almost every game making heavy use of the right stick (which is why primary actions were moved to the bumpers and triggers in most games).

 

[Roguey]

I played Death Stranding with a controller and don't recall any issues with aiming.

I recommend getting good.

 

[Ezekiel]

I played Death Stranding with a controller and don't recall any issues with aiming.

I recommend getting good.

Do you shoot stuff in Death Stranding? If so, fake news. You had issues.

 

[Roguey]

Do you shoot stuff in Death Stranding? If so, fake news. You had issues.

Yes. Bosses. The war flashback sequences.

Also using bolas against men (you shouldn't use guns against them or kill them obviously).

 

[El Presidente]

Are game controllers crap?​

Yes, they kinda are, but they're fun to use with old games like an NES platformer and such. It's honestly more like a fun gimmick than anything else for the vast majority of genres except for racing games, which are obviously much better with a wheel but I can't imagine the great ones being cheap (or worth it if you're not a somewhat dedicated racing gamer), so a controller is a serviceable substitute.

They're also good with third person 3D games with controls like a Zelda/Mario/Soulslikes/etc. , especially if you're into LARPing stuff like walking for a bit when you enter some atmospheric or important place, like a throne room. With the KBM setup you're almost always stuck in run-only with these games because of the binary nature of the keyboard, even though this is just laziness from the devs side and not an excuse. I remember Splinter Cell Chaos Theory being excellent on KBM, you could adjust Fisher's walk speed with the mouse wheel and it worked like a charm.

 

[Ezekiel]

Are game controllers crap?​

Yes, they kinda are, but they're fun to use with old games like an NES platformer and such. It's honestly more like a fun gimmick than anything else for the vast majority of genres except for racing games, which are obviously much better with a wheel but I can't imagine the great ones being cheap (or worth it if you're not a somewhat dedicated racing gamer), so a controller is a serviceable substitute.

They're also good with third person 3D games with controls like a Zelda/Mario/Soulslikes/etc. , especially if you're into LARPing stuff like walking for a bit when you enter some atmospheric or important place, like a throne room. With the KBM setup you're almost always stuck in run-only with these games because of the binary nature of the keyboard, even though this is just laziness from the devs side and not an excuse. I remember Splinter Cell Chaos Theory being excellent on KBM, you could adjust Fisher's walk speed with the mouse wheel and it worked like a charm.

Would rather hold a button to walk, slowly run by default and dash with another button than use a scroll wheel like in Splinter Cell. Was too clunky for not being immediate and making you have to look at the HUD to see your speed or try to feel how many notches you rolled the wheel.

 

[El Presidente]

Are game controllers crap?​

Yes, they kinda are, but they're fun to use with old games like an NES platformer and such. It's honestly more like a fun gimmick than anything else for the vast majority of genres except for racing games, which are obviously much better with a wheel but I can't imagine the great ones being cheap (or worth it if you're not a somewhat dedicated racing gamer), so a controller is a serviceable substitute.

They're also good with third person 3D games with controls like a Zelda/Mario/Soulslikes/etc. , especially if you're into LARPing stuff like walking for a bit when you enter some atmospheric or important place, like a throne room. With the KBM setup you're almost always stuck in run-only with these games because of the binary nature of the keyboard, even though this is just laziness from the devs side and not an excuse. I remember Splinter Cell Chaos Theory being excellent on KBM, you could adjust Fisher's walk speed with the mouse wheel and it worked like a charm.

Would rather hold a button to walk, slowly run by default and dash with another button than use a scroll wheel like in Splinter Cell. Was too clunky for not being immediate and making you have to look at the HUD to see your speed or try to feel how many notches you rolled the wheel.

You're right, that might not be ideal for all games and the scheme you mention is probably more comfortable in the long run. Just serves to show run-only in these games is laziness on the devs part.

 

[Gerrard]

You could use one key to toggle between slow/fast walk, hold to crawl, double tap to sprint. I doubt you'd need more than 4 speeds for anything.
There are so very few games that actually let you bind keys with actions like hold or double tap too.

 

[Ezekiel]

My brother uses the left side of his controller for navigation and his mouse for aiming and is always telling me how backwards I am for using WASD and how lame it is that everyone in his multiplayer shooters is always running because they don't have analog navigation and complains about games that don't let you use a controller and mouse at the same time. His stick is also about two inches higher than normal sticks, for increased control he says. Think he 3D-printed it. I find it really awkward.

 

[Nutmeg]

My brother uses the left side of his controller for navigation and his mouse for aiming and is always telling me how backwards I am for using WASD and how lame it is that everyone in his multiplayer shooters is always running because they don't have analog navigation and complains about games that don't let you use a controller and mouse at the same time. His stick is also about two inches higher than normal sticks, for increased control he says. Think he 3D-printed it. I find it really awkward.

He should just use joystick and mouse. IIRC some people used to play Quake 1 like that.

 

[Ezekiel]

My brother uses the left side of his controller for navigation and his mouse for aiming and is always telling me how backwards I am for using WASD and how lame it is that everyone in his multiplayer shooters is always running because they don't have analog navigation and complains about games that don't let you use a controller and mouse at the same time. His stick is also about two inches higher than normal sticks, for increased control he says. Think he 3D-printed it. I find it really awkward.

He should just use joystick and mouse. IIRC some people used to play Quake 1 like that.

He said he doesn't like the "wrist action" of joysticks. He added that it's really annoying when he's in a small room with other players because they run around and their "capsule colliders" keep bumping into him. Like I know what a capsule collider is. I watched a Left 4 Dead 2 recording he did. It was weird to see him move around the infected with analog movement while aiming like no one with a controller can.

I would be happy to design a game for a controller if I had a ton of money, but it wouldn't have the heavy camera precision and reliance on claw grip that makes complicated modern console games so clunky.

"Fixed" cams should come back and menu-heavy pseudo-RPG shit needs to GTFO of a ton of games!

 

[deama]

What about these ones:

 

[Maxie]

What about these ones:

youre playing a game not operating a gundam

 

[Nutmeg]

Anyway controllers are fun. Arcade sticks and buttons are ideal for digital input only games, but a good Saturn pad clone (like the m30) is a nice, more compact, alternative, as is using the keyboard for something already on your desk.

For 3rd person 3D character games, starting with Mario 64, through to Jet Set Radio, through to Dragons Dogma, Nier Automata and Dark Souls, an analog stick for movement (and maybe a second one for camera) beats keyboard and mouse, especially in terms of the visual effect. I absolutely hate watching people play 3rd person 3D games with digital inputs and a mouse -- it's very jerky and flimsy looking.

The Negcon is the best thing ever for racing without a full wheel set up. Flight sticks and a keyboard are a must for flying games (though I have never found a flight stick I can love, they're all just too large and ugly and the cord is never detachable).

Turn based games I am happy to play with either digital inputs only or supplemented with a mouse.

That leaves keyboard and mouse for RTS, FPS, and perhaps Diablo likes, with only a keyboard just fine for digital input only games (a good 90%+ of pre-1999 gaming).

My current input peripheral repertoire is: m30, sn30, negcon, keyboard, mouse. I have a flight stick and an arcade stick in storage. I am missing compact versions of those two things and maybe an analog stick + 6 face buttons controller for the two or three n64 and Saturn games I like where that's optimal.

 

[deama]

What about these ones:

youre playing a game not operating a gundam

I don't see a problem with that.

 

[mediocrepoet]

What the fuck? Is that actually how you hold a controller?

 

[Ezekiel]

What the fuck? Is that actually how you hold a controller?

That's not me, but yes, sometimes I have to, and this is widespread. Tell me how YOU control the camera/aim and use the face buttons (possibly to dodge or dash) at the same time. Almost thirty years of this shit. Well, again, games used to have fixed cams, auto-aim and no shooting to get around this. The developers KNEW it. Funny how God of War, when it still had fixed cams, had platforming puzzles and stuff, and then when they switched to the over the shoulder cam that forced the primary action buttons to the shoulders and triggers, the puzzles became about staring at patterns, and much less intuitive for it.

 

[El Presidente]

What the fuck? Is that actually how you hold a controller?

If you wanna move, control the camera, attack, dodge and heal, all at once, you have no other option than to do this abomination, IIRC this (or similar) is how I held the controller while playing Dark Souls.