Against the Chris Avellone personality cult

[Mastermind]

his politics are discernible through his writing, he is pure liberal corruption of everything that is good. he just doesn't hammer you in the head with them like biowhore

If avellone wrote that then i take it back, he is a complete hack.

 

[Roguey]

If avellone wrote that then i take it back, he is a complete hack.

I'm sure he'd feel more strongly about this years later.

 

[Taxnomore]

You need an education to write decently.

And when you are educated, you are liberal.

It's easy to understand.

 

[Fairfax]

If avellone wrote that then i take it back, he is a complete hack.

I'm sure he'd feel more strongly about this years later.

If he was into self-inserts, he would never have written characters like Ulysses or Kreia.

 

[Roguey]

If he was into self-inserts, he would never have written characters like Ulysses or Kreia.

Isn't Kreia his "Here's what I think about the force" mouthpiece and Ulyssses his "Here's what I think about this post-post apocalyptic Fallout business" mouthpiece?

 

[cruelio]

It was really cool when he contrived the stupidest story possible for my blank slate character in Fallout New Vegas. No you fucking moron, my character has 10 int, he didn't accidentally nuke some stupid village like a retard, and then apparently forget about the whole thing. As seen by other stupid things like the time he EPICALLY DECONSTRUCTED STAR WARS, A STORY FOR CHILDREN and how his writing stands out like a sore thumb in every game retards keep contracting him to write for (eg his stupid D:OS 2 character that is nothing like every other character in the game) the man is a narcissist who cares more about getting his shit in for whatever project unfortunate enough to have him on board. Hugely overrated. Would laugh to see him actually write in a medium that's not aimed at manchildren with too much disposable time and income.

 

[KK1001]

Avellone needs to be lead writer and lead narrative designer on projects, because his stuff never really fits in with everyone elses and either makes their stuff look bad or stands out in a bad way.

 

[2house2fly]

If he was into self-inserts, he would never have written characters like Ulysses or Kreia.

Isn't Kreia his "Here's what I think about the force" mouthpiece and Ulyssses his "Here's what I think about this post-post apocalyptic Fallout business" mouthpiece?

If you want to be really reductionist, yes

 

[Old One]

Ahh I used to own The Forces of Krill and read the shit out of it. I didn't realize it was written by the game designer. of my childhood.

I actually just re-read Forces of Krill a few months ago. It holds up. I was impressed.

 

[Sacred82]

If he was into self-inserts, he would never have written characters like Ulysses or Kreia.

Isn't Kreia his "Here's what I think about the force" mouthpiece and Ulyssses his "Here's what I think about this post-post apocalyptic Fallout business" mouthpiece?

the whole of PS:T was just a vehicle for a barely not-teenager-anymore to shit his worldview right down players' throats.

 

[kintake]

the whole of PS:T was just a vehicle for a barely not-teenager-anymore to shit his worldview right down players' throats.

“Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering.”

Jesus be my vessel fuck sake, keep the anxiety in check there we go.

 

[Malpercio]

ITT: Codex learns writers are people, and what we write is influenced by what we believe. Codex is confused.

 

[Sacred82]

ITT: Codex learns writers are people, and what we write is influenced by what we believe. Codex is confused.

People with a teaching/ preaching mindset can pigeonhole themselves easily.

If you think there's a deeper motivation behind every bad guy than simply passing on the pain they themselves have suffered, every single villain they write will drown you in the diarrhea of their complex inner workings before shooting you in the face.

 

[Fairfax]

If he was into self-inserts, he would never have written characters like Ulysses or Kreia.

Isn't Kreia his "Here's what I think about the force" mouthpiece and Ulyssses his "Here's what I think about this post-post apocalyptic Fallout business" mouthpiece?

They're both products of his approach to exploring settings and their themes, which is to question everything and provide different perspectives.

You sometimes get accused of writing “preachy” characters like Kreia or Ulysses, even though you’ve mentioned several times that you write them as if they were wrong; many other fans obsessively look for aspects of Ravel in the games you write (I admit that I’m one of those guys). Are you ever bothered by the audience reading into your work, getting caught up on stuff and perhaps missing the point?

Chris Avellone: I think whatever point players derive from any characters I’ve written is the point, despite whatever intentions I had while writing them – and it likely says a lot about the players themselves (in a good way). I do make an effort to step outside the characters I write, especially if they have markedly different attitudes and perspectives than I do, and try to see how they might view the world. I’ve even chosen in the past to purposely write characters that are 180 degrees of my own beliefs just to try and work through how perspectives like those might arise -and not to be preaching, but to understand. I think it’s a betrayal of a game’s theme to introduce a theme and then (as a developer) choose the answer for the player or dictate that answer to them as the “right” way – you want the player to think about the question, not get lectured.

Neither Kreia or Ulysses are anyone I 100% agree with, but they are intended to ask questions of the player and the universe, yes. I think their superior tone is what comes across as preaching, but for me, it just makes defeating them (especially out-thinking them) even stronger for a protagonist… because you’ve just proven they don’t know as much as they thought they did. I think the only time I ever get bothered (although I’d use the word “embarrassed”) is when people assume a character, world, or piece of writing I did came from a more educated place (philosophical, religious, historical, etc.) than it actually did – I’m not really classically educated, I just like writing about worlds and imagining what a character’s life would be like in that world.

WO: Is there any character that you've written which has been based on you, or shared aspects of your own personality?

MCA: There's a little bit of my take on religion with Kaelyn the Dove in Mask of the Betrayer. I don't generally try to write based on my personal views outside of gaming or based on anyone I know, I feel it muddies the point of the character and doesn't help the narrative. Plus, I'd feel weird about incorporating elements of someone I knew into a character, since I feel it ends up being distracting to your evaluation of the character as you're implementing it and can sometimes feel "off" to someone who encounters the character in game.

There are a few exceptions, and these were all done in the context of questioning their world or questioning game mechanics: One is Kreia in Knights of the Old Republic 2, who captures a lot of the questions about the Force and Star Wars, another is Elijah in FNV DLC1: Dead Money, who is speaking about my frustration with hand-holding in RPGs, but considering both are franchise and/or game mechanic opinions directly related to the universes they are trapped in, I feel they get a pass. Lastly, Ulysses in Fallout New Vegas DLC4 (Lonesome Road) and his intentions there categorize how I feel the Mojave and the West should be dealt with in Fallout.

MCA does share some opinions with Kreia and Ulysses, but only when it comes to the setting or mechanics, and usually coming from a different place or for meta reasons. Kreia questioned the same things he did regarding SW, but that doesn't mean he despises compassion and charity. He wanted to nuke the Mojave, but as a designer and a Fallout fan, not for the reasons Ulysses had.

When he does use a character as a mouthpiece, it's for stuff like this, not political views:

Elijah: "That thing on your wrist - it's a convenience. It tells you where to go, what to do, dulls your brain.. It may have helped you find the Sierra Madre broadcast, but it's just as much a crutch today as it was in the Old World.

Kreia: "Direct action is not always the best way. It is a far greater victory to make another see through your eyes than to close theirs forever."

 

[Neanderthal]

There is one little point in Torment where I think MCA slips up on this point: The Cranium Rats and Many As One, they attack you in the Hive and Trash Warren's so you kill em, but they judge you for that and so you make an enemy before knowing it and they control one way of getting to the Bronze Sphere.

Only way to make em less of a bad guy is to avoid xp, coin, content, and some damned fine loot. So you're kind of punished unintentionally if you go with em as your continuation option.

Then again reversing the Undead into being (mainly) the good guys was refreshing at the time, then again rats, like most scavengers and survivors are equally vilified.

I'm in two minds I suppose, never felt really preached at, though i'm free and easy so eeeh.

 

[kintake]

They attack you, then judge you, thus trying to force you to be their ally. It's the tactic of the knave. And they are rats after all.
It's been so long since I played PS:T, but isn't that how shit goes down with many-as-one? Forced to coercion. And doesn't the undead basically do the same? Try to force your cooperation? Damn, don't have time to replay PS:T but now I want to.

 

[Fairfax]

There is one little point in Torment where I think MCA slips up on this point: The Cranium Rats and Many As One, they attack you in the Hive and Trash Warren's so you kill em, but they judge you for that and so you make an enemy before knowing it and they control one way of getting to the Bronze Sphere.

Only way to make em less of a bad guy is to avoid xp, coin, content, and some damned fine loot. So you're kind of punished unintentionally if you go with em as your continuation option.

Then again reversing the Undead into being (mainly) the good guys was refreshing at the time, then again rats, like most scavengers and survivors are equally vilified.

I'm in two minds I suppose, never felt really preached at, though i'm free and easy so eeeh.

Many-as-One and the Warrens of Thought were designed by Colin McComb.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

It was really cool when he contrived the stupidest story possible for my blank slate character in Fallout New Vegas. No you fucking moron, my character has 10 int, he didn't accidentally nuke some stupid village like a retard, and then apparently forget about the whole thing. As seen by other stupid things like the time he EPICALLY DECONSTRUCTED STAR WARS, A STORY FOR CHILDREN and how his writing stands out like a sore thumb in every game retards keep contracting him to write for (eg his stupid D:OS 2 character that is nothing like every other character in the game) the man is a narcissist who cares more about getting his shit in for whatever project unfortunate enough to have him on board. Hugely overrated. Would laugh to see him actually write in a medium that's not aimed at manchildren with too much disposable time and income.

wanted to figure out who specifically he wrote in D:OS2, google suggested me this

what

 

[Fairfax]

It was Ron Perlman.

So it's getting late, there's only time in the studio for single takes for most of the lines. Note that I'm not there for this, but I get to hear the recording later on from our overly-delighted sound engineer, Fred Hatch, who says, smiling, "hey, you have to listen to this, Avellone."

Our audio director is getting Ron through his lines, when Ron hits one of my unintended alliteration minefields in one of the end sequences.

He does a few takes, getting madder each time, until he finally says, "Who is this Chris Avellone guy?"

At this point, I realize that because I am a formatting nazi, I have put my name at the top of each page of the script in case the audio director had any questions.

As this sinks in, Ron exclaims. "I want him dead. I want his family dead. I want his dog dead."

BTW, I don't have a dog, but if I did, it would most likely have been peeing on the floor like I was doing.

He calmed down, though, and I continued to empty my bladder in the floor of Fred Hatch's office.

And that is the day that I always made sure to read every line I wrote out loud just to make sure my imaginary dog would live to see another day.

So our audio director turns to me, and asks me to describe the “character” that Ron’s playing this session, which for Heart of Winter is a dragon (which is fine) who has taken the form of a barbarian (which is fine), except that the dragon’s a woman, and before I can edit myself, the words “oh, you’ll be playing a transvestite dragon” comes out of my mouth, and I feel my bladder bracing itself again.

 

[Roguey]

He wrote Fane's background, but not his actual dialogue.

what

Ron Perlman got mad at an awkward line of dialogue.

 

[Neanderthal]

They attack you, then judge you, thus trying to force you to be their ally. It's the tactic of the knave. And they are rats after all.
It's been so long since I played PS:T, but isn't that how shit goes down with many-as-one? Forced to coercion. And doesn't the undead basically do the same? Try to force your cooperation? Damn, don't have time to replay PS:T but now I want to.

The Dead Nations just don't want you there full stop, they've left the living behind and are tolerating you until you slip into their care. Which you can never do.

Personally i'd have had the Undead judge you on how many crypts you've disturbed. That is almost their raison d'etre so it'd make sense, and give some more nice c&c.

Course i've always thought that you could get past the Undead by killing yourself and rising again, proving you are kind of undead, but there you go.

 

[janjetina]

Only cucks use Goolag.

 

[KK1001]

I mean, "bad" people IRL tend to do bad shit for three reasons: 1) because they think they're doing good; 2) they want to harm those who haven't afforded them the status they believe they deserve; 3) it makes them money

A lot of morons are so heavily invested in making a point that they become ultra reductionists, no better than TV trope types. The devil is in always in the details of storytelling.

 

[Sacred82]

I mean, "bad" people IRL tend to do bad shit for three reasons: 1) because they think they're doing good

that's actually one of the most common tropes nowadays, which has no basis in reality. Even delusional people rarely ever state they were helping the old lady cross the street when they actually beat her into a bloody pulp. At best, they claim that something, even a higher power, ordered them to do so. Those people who try to put forth good intentions as a defence are actually those who aren't legally insane; meaning, they're in control of themselves, and we can relatively safely chalk that defence up to lying.

 

[KK1001]

What's even the point of this thread again? SQWs with an axe to grind against Avellone because he's liberal?

The guy pretty much single-handedly gave us PS:T and 80% of everything worthwhile in the games to which he has seriously contributed. His portfolio includes some of THE most memorable characters in RPG history, and rarely strays into the territory of the cliche, hackneyed, or strained. The main is an absolute legend for a reason. You should be pissed at him because he wastes his talents doing contract writing for lesser writers with half his imagination.