A problem with RPGs: RPG developers are not well-read in myth and fantasy/sci-fi literature

[almondblight]

Lord of Light and The Book of the New Sun are on both my Best Fantasy list and my Best Science Fiction list; both novels are science fiction in that they occur in the (distant) future with an ostensibly technological explanation for anything, but they can be read as fantasy featuring magical items and creatures (somewhat less easily for The Book of the New Sun, but certainly for Lord of Light). In Lord of Light, some of the characters possess psionic abilities that can fit in SF but also interpreted as magical powers in a fantasy setting, the descendants of the colonists exist in medieval conditions with advanced technology controlled by the crew-members who are passing themselves off as gods, the relatively small number of high-tech items being used by the pseudo-deities can be viewed as magic items (e.g. the replacement Indra wields a wand of fireballs), the planet being colonized contains native alien life that can also be viewed as fantasy monsters, etc.

You could, but that would be like reading Dune as a fantasy story about the Freeman messiah coming and fulfilling the prophecy.

If where we're calling things fantasy even though they're not only explicitly shown to be technology, but where it's also essential to the plot that they're understood as technology (the plot wouldn't work if the crew members were actual gods wielding actual magic), I'm not sure a distinction between SciFi and Fantasy makes sense anymore. Or we're talking about an aesthetic rather than a setting (certainly Lord of Light and Book of the New Sun have aesthetic similarities to fantasy).

The Dying Earth stories get a pass, because there are enough of them that make complete sense even if people have no understanding of the supposed SciFi background of the setting. In some stories, they actually make more sense that way. Then again, in others you have post-apocalyptic cities and flying cars. It kind of feels like the setting was a way for Vance to throw in whatever he felt like at a given moment.

As an aside, Alan Moore completely copied the scene where Sam goes to meet the imprisoned Rakasha in one of his Green Lantern stories.

 

[Serious_Business]

Eh, seems fair if you don't make a hyperbole out of it. The title precises - "a reason" and not "the reason", a prudence which isn't reproduced by the post ("Why? Because..."), something that could have been avoided. I don't disagree but ultimately you have no way to proof any of this, that is to say, what is the level of "culture" of x or y writer. Supposing that a great reader would produce great works doesn't seem far off, but then who knows? How do you estimate a "lacking" imagination? Is there some school somewhere to be a great writer, do you have to read this and that classic to be endowed with the "eternal truths" and then reproduce them on paper or in video game format?

If you remove the ridicule out of it, I suppose game writers read too much from the same fantasy pulp sources, yes. That's what they're supposed to write in the first place, so it makes sense. Maybe one could transpose the critique on popular writing in the first place, without however brandishing the hammer of "serious literature", preferably, as pretending at the importance of culture, its sublime and transcendent nature, is a sure way to show that you know nothing of what it consists in (it consists in work, mostly). Ultimately most "speculative fiction", as you say, doesn't tend to be considered to be aesthetically serious in academic circles notably, but then anyone who has such standards, again, probably isn't a writer, popular or otherwise.

Anyway there's plenty of other elements to diminish the talents of writers, as others have mentionned. My most usual point about bad writing in games is how it diconnects the systems and the word ; in that sense your written word could be "sublime" and still be bad if it's not somehow integrated with the gameplay. Game writers need to play more games, in that sense, not read more ; they need to learn to code if anything (be interdisciplinary, so to speak). One way to cut this difficulty in fact is just accept that your writing is just "fluff", accessory and not even necessary to the experience (Battle Brothers being a good example - it has great writing but indeed you don't have to read any of it to play).

 

[gurugeorge]

It's the double whammy of general decline (derivatives of derivatives, as someone said above), which might have happened anyway, but on top of that you have the whole ESG bollocks, which further restricts what's possible.

Of course in some cases the two are interlinked: congenial ESG-kowtowing hires are likely to be ignorant of anything not from the Current Year anyway (which means all they will know is derivatives of derivatives).

Looking at it the other way, the situation might be resolvable via the usual commercial means (someone could write something new, inspired by the old, and it's a hit) if ESG wasn't putting a spanner in the works and making everyone play safe by using denatured versions of already-denatured derivatives.

A secondary effect is that genuinely nerdy types (who are likely to be both well-read and good at world-building) are squeezed out while ESG-drones are squeezed in - and that has a knock-on effect in terms of attention to detail wrt the whole product and its quality too.

 

[Tyranicon]

You are delusional if you think the millenial women who make up the majority of game writers and "narrative designers" are playing RPGs. They are also reading a lot more than you think. Bad news: those books are tween love triangle urban fantasy slop.

Yes, Japan is trying to imitate the west and struggling to execute but that is no different from the past.

One thing I noticed (and this applies across the board with male and female millennial writers) is that if you look into their interests, you find that what they're really invested in is young adult media. Namely anime and their western counterparts, such as stuff like Avatar: TLA or Adventure Time.

While a good argument may be had for the merits of this kind of media, the problem is that it's fundamentally made for younger audiences. Writers who are "inspired" by such stories are only motivated to regurgitate similar content, but with even less quality than their predecessors. In the modern era, this means making it edgier and with more sex.

 

[DJOGamer PT]

Oh look!
This thread.

Again.

 

[Axioms]

You are delusional if you think the millenial women who make up the majority of game writers and "narrative designers" are playing RPGs. They are also reading a lot more than you think. Bad news: those books are tween love triangle urban fantasy slop.

Yes, Japan is trying to imitate the west and struggling to execute but that is no different from the past.

One thing I noticed (and this applies across the board with male and female millennial writers) is that if you look into their interests, you find that what they're really invested in is young adult media. Namely anime and their western counterparts, such as stuff like Avatar: TLA or Adventure Time.

While a good argument may be had for the merits of this kind of media, the problem is that it's fundamentally made for younger audiences. Writers who are "inspired" by such stories are only motivated to regurgitate similar content, but with even less quality than their predecessors. In the modern era, this means making it edgier and with more sex.

Absolutely the case. They even created "new adult" which is YA but ideally, they failed here, without the stigma.

 

[octavius]

Every time I try to write something in this thread, I realize I've already said if before.
I feel we've had this discussion before.

 

[DJOGamer PT]

Video games never had good writing

Disproven by the existence of games with good writting

The peak of video game agency is letting the player loose within dynamic interacting systems and that requires the writer to stay far away.

This presupposes that "player agency" is an absolute good
It isn't
If an action/choice doesn't contribute to the mechanics - or at least even the storytelling (should the game have it) - in a positive manner, then it shouldn't exist to begin with
It's far better to have 3 only interesting options, than a multitude of nearly insignificant ones just to tick the "agency" checkbox

The worldbuilding meme is also horrible

This assessment is retarded given that one of the main appeals of fantasy and sci-fi is the worldbuild
This assessment is specially retarded for videogames as interaction and reactivity with a game's world is the medium's unique and fundamental strength

 

[Cohesion]

Every time I try to write something in this thread, I realize I've already said if before.
I feel we've had this discussion before.

Please write again. I'm not joking.

 

[DJOGamer PT]

I feel we've had this discussion before.

We've had

 

[RatTower]

I would have agreed ten years ago. Today I wouldn't even go that far.
Today, it feels like some writers have never even had a normal conversation before.

That's how their dialogue reads. It's either stiff or overly quippy. There seems to be nothing in between.
Think of the first two episodes of Rings of Power. You can roughly sort most characters into those two categories.
Or think of Forespoken.

Remember, those are Triple-A production values. That is the "best" that corporate money can buy so to speak.
In the case of RoP I would even call it Quadruple-A production values.
And what's the result? Quotes like this:

"Do you know why a ship floats and a stone cannot? Because the stone sees only downward."

I gotta be careful here because I am not a great writer myself (I'm not even a native speaker), but I wouldn't dream of ever writing something like that.

And I am not even sure how to fix this. Because these people are hired "professionals". They have a full "professional" development behind them.
In other words: They are not teenagers who write cringy poetry because they don't know any better. They write this way as the result of an education and sometimes years of professional experience.
So throwing good books at them probably wouldn't even do anything. From what I can see, they are deliberately like this.

And the most infuriating thing about this is, that some of them are so bad, they single-handedly sink whole projects.
So you have a technical artist that is fantastic, great visual designers, competent programmers, creative musicians - and you can see and hear and feel all of that.
And then you read the story and you start to wonder what on earth went through the mind of the lead producer that greenlit this.

It is baffling. But then, what are you going to do, when that's the standard?
I don't know what to do with it. I don't know where it's coming from either. Maybe Social Media, maybe Marvel, who knows?
And I am not even criticizing Marvel that much (I am definitely criticizing Social Media - I think that rots your brain), but what works for superheroes doesn't necessarily work in other forms of speculative fiction.

Sooner or later it will go away I guess. Perhaps to be replaced by an even more abysmal new standard.
I guess the most effective thing to do is not consume it.

I could go on about this for hours, but let me instead add to the recommended reading list:
Arthur Conan Doyle. He's mostly known for Sherlock Holmes, but The Lost World is also a fun read. It's a story that puts some hair on your chest and you can almost sense the impact this work had on the later Pulp scene. Speaking of Pulp...
Bukowski. I am not too familiar with most of his work, but I really liked "Pulp". Mostly because of the narrator's insistence to say "I'm gonna nail your ass". It's just entertaining. Listen to an audiobook of it maybe if you have three hours to spare.
Dostoyevsky. Long but rewarding. If you want something short (and in a sense hilarious) read Notes from the Underground. It's like diving into the mind of an obsessive 4chan poster, but in the 19th century. The first half is schizo ramblings and the second half is basically a long greentext about petty rivalries the guy mostly makes up in his head. I don't care if people call it the foundation of existentialism - I am aware - but in a very pathetic way, it's absolutely hilarious. And it's an excellent read cause you can encounter these types on the internet every day - which illustrates how little people actually change throughout history. So it's a good look into a specific character that's still relevant.
As far as myth goes I can recommend the Shahnameh if you can get a well-translated version. I have a german prose version, which is okay because it's mostly about interesting encounters and concepts in a very colorful and foreign mythology. So I suppose, unless you read it in persian the stylistic merit won't come through anyway. I don't know of a properly translated poetry version (at least not in german - perhaps there is a fully translated english version).
I have also looked into the Mahabharata a while ago. It seems very interesting but I cannot really speak of it.
And as a last one: Journey to the West. One of the chinese classics and a book so popular over there that it's basically impossible to avoid. I think it set the dominant tropes in modern Eastern adventure stories. So much, so that even Dragonball roughly works by the same rules. With over 1000 pages it's also a massive literary work, so don't even bother reading it all at once. It's kind of episodic anyway. But fun to read.

 

[octavius]

Every time I try to write something in this thread, I realize I've already said if before.
I feel we've had this discussion before.

Please write again. I'm not joking.

For the benefit of new Codexers:

I get the impression that today's "artists" are increasingly part of the same echo chamber, where they feed off each other and older artists, the latter in the form of remakes and reboots and other unremarkable creative ventures. While former generations of artists usually had formative experience from WW1-2, Korean War and Vietnam War, and often had tried lots of different jobs, and got married and had children before turning 20, the current crop have a much more limited life experience.
There's less chance for "unique individuals" to emerge, since they all get the same influences at the same time through social media.
I think that effects the art (in the broad sense of the word) being currently produced.

Just my impressions, though.

The computer medium is not the best for C&C (a good human DM can do that much better) or story telling (any competent professional writer of fiction do that better). Computers are a good medium for combat, exploration, and interaction with the game world.

 

[luj1]

RPG needs heavy literary influences to flourish in terms of writing/world building.

Of course

How many devs nowadays have read the labours of Heracles, the Epic of Gilgamesh, Giovagnoli's Spartacus or any other classic adventure novel (e.g. The Longships, Moby Dick, Mines of King Solomon, etc)? How many have even read Jules Verne or H. G. Wells? How many have read Dumas?

I'm in my early 30s, we were all served this stuff in the eastern bloc at a young age. So for me the level of these games is insanely low


60s/70s SF you mention is great, but these devs need to work their way UP to that tier first. They lack basic education

 

[octavius]

these devs need to work their way UP to that tier first. They lack basic education

Now now, I'm sure they are experts on the correct usage of pronouns.

 

[easychord]

It doesn't really matter if they are well-read or not because the media values they are taught are different now.
1. They are told that world building is a waste of time. Every moment spent on world building is time when your "content" is not released and making money for shareholders. World building and genuine mysteries to unravel are procrastination! Just make it all up as you go.
2. They are taught that literally nothing about the past, future, or anything in the world outside contemporary middle class America matters. Everything should be an allegory for hot political issues in the USA because that market is so big and easily activated by issues they recognise. Dumb it down. Money money money all over your face.
3. They are told that the "rule of cool" is in action. The only thing that matters is if something is "cool" no matter how moronic or unbelievable it is or how badly it reflects on the interior life of the characters.

 

[Tweed]

On the other hand, art should be meaningful. Perhaps specifically, it should have intent.

Oh there's no denying the intentions in modern garbage and it's all bad.

 

[luj1]

How many devs nowadays have read the labours of Heracles, the Epic of Gilgamesh, Giovagnoli's Spartacus or any other classic adventure novel (e.g. The Longships, Moby Dick, Mines of King Solomon, etc)? How many have even read Jules Verne or H. G. Wells? How many have read Dumas?

This and stuff like Exupery's Little Prince, Don Quixote, Jonathan Livingston Seagull, even the Old Testament I consider basics of prose and literature 101

There should be a thread stickied in this forum on the 50 works every dev should know

This can be said not only about books, but also movies and comics. Don't forget comics are ninth under the classical old world art classification. Every movie and videogame needs a storyboard which is essentially a comic

You think any of these concept artists know about Harold Foster, Howard Pyle or classical comics such as Rip Kirby, Blueberry, Adler or Armies? Maybe they heard of Frazetta, at BEST, or Moebius

 

[luj1]

Arthur Conan Doyle. He's mostly known for Sherlock Holmes, but The Lost World is also a fun read. It's a story that puts some hair on your chest and you can almost sense the impact this work had on the later Pulp scene.

Horror of the Heights

 

[Zed Duke of Banville]

I think that modern video game writers only know four types of books:

1. The classics they were forced to read during their English studies (old, white, racist and sexist, so irrelevant).

2. Fantasy books they read in their early youth (old, white, racist and sexist, so they pretend they haven't read them).

3. Feminist and racial literature recommended by The Washington Post/Guardian and so on.

4. Contemporary fantasy from lists like this: https://www.grimdarkmagazine.com/8-...s-for-grimdark-fans-to-celebrate-pride-month- 2023/

Younger writers in current year would have experienced far less of the first category than you are suggesting, in terms of being exposed to actual classics or even worthwhile material, and the content of the second category for them would be entirely different from you or I, which is to say they wouldn't be pretending not to have read fantasy books but rather that the books they have read are schlock at best and at worst are similar to the content of your fourth category.

 

[gurugeorge]

I would have agreed ten years ago. Today I wouldn't even go that far.
Today, it feels like some writers have never even had a normal conversation before.

The dialogue in Outer Worlds is particularly like that, I noticed - oddly hollow. It must be like that in a fair number of "AAA" games, but I don't play most of them (like the big console hits and all that).

 

[Reinhardt]

How many devs nowadays have read the labours of Heracles, the Epic of Gilgamesh, Giovagnoli's Spartacus or any other classic adventure novel (e.g. The Longships, Moby Dick, Mines of King Solomon, etc)? How many have even read Jules Verne or H. G. Wells? How many have read Dumas?

This and stuff like Exupery's Little Prince, Don Quixote, Jonathan Livingston Seagull, even the Old Testament I consider basics of prose and literature 101

There should be a thread stickied in this forum on the 50 works every dev should know

This can be said not only about books, but also movies and comics. Don't forget comics are ninth under the classical old world art classification. Every movie and videogame needs a storyboard which is essentially a comic

You think any of these concept artists know about Harold Foster, Howard Pyle or classical comics such as Rip Kirby, Blueberry, Adler or Armies? Maybe they heard of Frazetta, at BEST, or Moebius

don't worry, brave and stunning wombyn made new dumbed down translation of homer epics for new pipo. (((they/them))) butchering "problematic" content from classic books right now. so you already need to ask not just if writer read any good books but which version of it.

 

[Hobo Elf]

My take is that not being well read is more the symptom than the cause. The main issue is that the people making these games just lack any kind of passion period. Be that passion in reading books, going out to spend time in nature, movies or whatever. I can listen to a person talk hours upon hours about what they care about as they are more likely to make it sound compelling. But a person who doesn't truly care about anything at all won't have anything worth saying either. The closest thing these people have to a passion is collecting funko pops and there the passion lies with consumerist aspect, i.e collecting crap for the sake of it, instead of the fiction that the funko pop represents.

 

[La vie sexuelle]

I think that modern video game writers only know four types of books:

1. The classics they were forced to read during their English studies (old, white, racist and sexist, so irrelevant).

2. Fantasy books they read in their early youth (old, white, racist and sexist, so they pretend they haven't read them).

3. Feminist and racial literature recommended by The Washington Post/Guardian and so on.

4. Contemporary fantasy from lists like this: https://www.grimdarkmagazine.com/8-...s-for-grimdark-fans-to-celebrate-pride-month- 2023/

Younger writers in current year would have experienced far less of the first category than you are suggesting, in terms of being exposed to actual classics or even worthwhile material, and the content of the second category for them would be entirely different from you or I, which is to say they wouldn't be pretending not to have read fantasy books but rather that the books they have read are schlock at best and at worst are similar to the content of your fourth category.

So you're suggesting that even Anglo-Saxon classics like Charles Dickens or Thomas Hardy are largely unknown to contemporary English studies outtakes? I'm afraid to ask what they read during their studies.
There is also a third option - they did not read the assigned books thoroughly. Patrick Weekes "received a B.A. and an M.A. in English Literature". I had the displeasure of reading his short story from the anthology "Tevinter Nights". It was seemingly written in a professional manner, but the further to the end, the more bad literature came out (BTW. even this short story had a gay subplot squeezed in, although it didn't really fit into a story about survival in the forest).

 

[Faarbaute]

That's how their dialogue reads. It's either stiff or overly quippy. There seems to be nothing in between.
Think of the first two episodes of Rings of Power. You can roughly sort most characters into those two categories.
Or think of Forespoken.

Remember, those are Triple-A production values. That is the "best" that corporate money can buy so to speak.
In the case of RoP I would even call it Quadruple-A production values.
And what's the result? Quotes like this:

"Do you know why a ship floats and a stone cannot? Because the stone sees only downward."

I believe that we are witnessing the emergence of a new, highly formalized, way of expression through art — one that lends itself entirely to a combination of commercialization and the expression of a correct set of values — aka wokeness.

Something akin to what that hideous corporate memphis represents to the visual medium. Just imagine these freaks talking to one another, and there's your modern AAA character and dialogue.

 

[Nifft Batuff]

The problem with young writers and modern fiction is that they are inspired by videogames and RPGs.